How Strong Can You Get With and Without Steroids?

| by Truth Seeker |


There are many self-protecting mechanisms wired deeply into the human nature. One of them is the ability to rationalize and exercise self-justification. When a reality is too hard to accept, the mind produces a theory that softens the hit and allows the individual to continue dwelling on the previous concept even if the truth is more than clear to anyone willing to think rationally.

If this cycle gains too much ground in one’s life, the individual starts living in an alternate world that is significantly out of the touch with the actual course of events. To a certain extent, everyone is a victim of this mechanism in various aspects of life. We don’t let ourselves see the truth because it’s exceptionally difficult and painful to live with it. Therefore, we press mute.

In the world of muscle, the same principle presents itself when the hypertrophy professors lecture us on the power of anabolic drugs. The experts call steroids “the finishing touch” and claim that “the champion would still be the champion” even if all drugs are removed from the sport/beauty contest.

If that’s the case, my friends, why are the behemoths spending thousands on coaches (cycle experts), anabolic steroids and growth hormone? If that’s the finishing touch, why does your whole life revolve around it?

It’s because roids are the engine.

The professional assassins of atrophy want you to believe that the formula for an ultra-thick musculature is genetics, broccoli, chicken breast and the perfect rep scheme.

They want you to think that roids are a decoration, but that simply isn’t true. Without the drugs, those men would be significantly smaller, weaker and fatter.

How Do Steroids Make You Stronger

Strength depends on the following factors:

– overall weight (in particular muscle size)

– joint resilience

– skeletal structure (proportions/frame)

– CNS conditioning

– training

– nutrition

Steroids could have a positive effect on all of the above except the skeletal structure of the lifter which cannot change regardless of exercises and steroid intake.

Muscle Size

Steroids make you big without training. A decent cocktail of anabolic drugs could turn a man who hasn’t seen the insides of a gym into a muscle monster in comparison to a natty chained to a squat rack doing Bulgarian “light” or whatever the sellers of dreams are promoting. Yes, my friends, that’s the power of hormones. Don’t believe me? Look at female bodybuilders. You really think they owe their mass to glute bridges, lunges, leg presses, burn sets, tri-sets or other nonsense? Of course, not. They look and talk like men because they take steroids – drugs mimicking male hormones. No amount of training will ever transform a natural woman into one of those.

If male hormones (steroids) have this effect on women, can you really call them the finishing touch? I don’t think so. Honestly, this is as close to magic as you can get in this world.

And what about men? What happens when they inject? Monsters happen. Every single mass jump in bodybuilding is linked to anabolic miracles in pharmacology. A coincidence? Maybe the progress is simply the result of purer broccoli and grass-fed beef? Of course, not. It’s the needle.

How much muscle can steroids add you your frame?

It depends on the following factors:

the drug and the dose – higher doses of potent anabolics produce more growth since the synthesis of muscle protein is boosted to exceptional levels;

genetics – while steroids can make anyone bigger (even females), the response to drugs is individual; some gain more than others while using less product;

nutrition – steroids can make you muscular and thick even on a low-calorie diet, but if you want to maximize size, you will have to eat big;

organ resilience – for every pro, there are dozens of gym rats who have suffered organ failure due to drug abuse; steroids in large quantities can destroy your liver, heart, kidneys…etc.

When I was writing the book Potential, I registered at 12 steroid forums and asked the men there how much mass they have gained from anabolic steroids. The dedicated pinners (members with thousands of posts) reported gains between 35lbs/16kg and 75lbs/34kg with 40-50lbs/18-23kg being the average. The numbers fluctuate because of three variables – dosage, career length and response to drugs.

A bodybuilder who has good genetics and takes 1 gram of gear will be bigger than a man on TRT cursed with a less potent reaction to drugs. I don’t know about you, but 23kg/50lbs of muscle do not sound like a finishing touch.

Keep in mind that in this case, we are talking about recreational bodybuilders for the most part. Many of the lifters on steroid forums do not compete. The pros gain even more muscle thanks to their superior genetics and extreme doses.

Can you imagine how much stronger you will be if 40-50lbs of extra contractile meat join your frame?

Most naturals never gain 40lbs of real muscle throughout their entire existence. Anorexic men do not count since most of the weight they add upon resurrecting would have been there had they ate mom’s spaghetti regularly. Those brahs are playing catch-up.

When I say that most naturals won’t gain 40lbs of extra muscle, I refer to individuals who don’t start in a severely underweight state.

Why won’t that happen? Because nature didn’t plan it. Consequently, the only way to make this a reality is to alter a natural process in the body, namely MPS (muscle protein synthesis). This is exactly what steroids do. The drugs pass through the membrane of a target cell and bind to an androgen receptor within it. They bribe the cell to produce more protein – far beyond the originally engineered rate.

Joint Resilience

Steroids can definitely affect your joints negatively by creating a strength gap between the connective tissues and the muscles. This happens often to kids who think that adding 100lbs to the bench press in a month can happen without consequences. Once their rotator cuffs and labrums tear to pieces, the smile goes away.

Nonetheless, there are many advanced lifters on the juice who carry joints that aren’t any less healthy than those of the average natty bro.

There are also steroids such as Deca and EQ known to alleviate joint pain. Unfortunately, other drugs like Winstrol dehydrate the joints and decrease the integrity of the connective tissues.

In short, steroids don’t make one’s joints bulletproof but won’t destroy them either if the plan of choice is conservative.

CNS Conditioning and Overclocking

The body is a slave to the mind. It cannot do anything without authorization from the head. One of the brain’s roles is to function as a central processing unit (CPU).

Some people have the amazing ability to generate an enormous amount of force thanks to their powerful central nervous system. One could say that those individuals have really strong CPUs that can overclock to impressive frequencies.

Do steroids boost this process?

Absolutely. It would be naive to think that high amounts of testosterone don’t have a heavy impact on your ability to get psyched. Drugs make you more aggressive and confident. A man with testosterone levels breaking the roof is more likely to punch you in the face than a millennial who has spent the better part of the summer stalking the snapchats of ungrateful girls in daisy dukes who never leave the house without their smartphones attached to a heavy-duty power bank.

Training Schedule

Steroids speed up your recovery by increasing the body’s anabolism. Subsequently, every routine becomes more effective when you are on drugs. If you want to train infrequently, you can do so as proven by the American powerlifters from the 70s. If you want to lift extremely frequently, you can do that too as shown by bodybuilders and lifters following Eastern tactics.


Anabolic drugs have a positive effect on nutrient partitioning. Hormonized lifters can eat more than naturals because the extra nutrients result in muscular growth rather than an accumulation of adipose tissue. The army of hormones inside the druggies is triggering supreme synthesis of protein.

Furthermore, men on drugs have a higher percentage of lean body mass which boosts the maintenance calories of the individual. A muscular man weighing 220lbs needs more calories to maintain himself than a 160lbs natural. This gives steroid users the ability to consume even more food.

But Greg Knuckols and other experts say that steroids increase your competitiveness in strength sports by about 10%. You mad?

You can’t truly know this percentage because actual naturals rarely fight against roid users.

Let me explain.

Steroid users and naturals have significantly different body compositions at the same height and weight.

The height of the lifter influences his weight class. The taller the individual, the heavier he needs to be to take full advantage of his leverages and lift big weights. Someone who is 6’1” has no business competing in the 135lbs category for instance.

Imagine the following situation. There are two lifters. One of them is 100% natural and weighs 170lbs at 6’1” and relatively lean – 12% body fat. The other one is a druggie who weighs 220lbs at the same height and body fat.

The fight looks like this:

6’1” @ 170lbs @ 12% body fat vs. 6’1” @ 220lbs @ 12% body fat

Who wins? If both train hard, the heavier and more muscular man will obliterate the natural. Their totals will be like night and day.

The solution? The natty should go on a heavy bulk, right?

I wish it was so simple, fellas.

But let’s assume it is. In that case, the natty will have to add 50lbs/22.7kg to his frame to weigh 220lbs and become “competitive”.

That’s certainly possible. Anyone can gain weight. The question is – what kind of weight?

Can all 50lbs be muscle? No (said with a firm and angry voice).

After gaining 50lbs, Mr. Natural could easily end-up over 25% BF.

Ultimately, we will have something like this:

6’1” @ 220lbs @ 25% BF vs. 6’1” @ 220lbs @ 12% BF

Who wins? All things being equal, the druggie obliterates the natty lifter infested with jello.

To make the matter even worse for the natty corner, a man with a light bone structure may need an even higher body fat level to weigh that much. And while fat helps you lift more weight, muscle is a more powerful soldier in the fight against gravity.

In addition, the above example does not feature a pro lifter. An elite powerlifter will rarely weigh less than 240lbs at 6’1”. John Kuc set records at that weight and height, but men like Marty Gallagher considered him underweight.

Here’s what Gallagher says about Kuc:

John Kuc deadlifting 854lbs

“The Great Kuc deadlifts 854: he stood 6’1″ and weighed 239 in 1978. Built all wrong for moving big weights, Kuc was too tall and too skinny and compounded his obstacles by using terrible technique – note the wide stance, his grip is so wide his hands almost touch the 32 inch rings on the bar, dramatically lengthening the pull.” {source}

According to Mr. Gallagher, weighing 239lbs at 6’1” is skinny. Yet you can bet that every human outside of the lifting world considered Kuc huge. In the photo his body fat looks around 15%.

Let’s go back to our example.

How much weight will our natty martyr have to gain to be 240lbs at 6’1”?


You can imagine how unrealistic it would be for someone to gain 70lbs of muscle naturally. Most certainly, that natural would become a lord of the adipose tissue. (30%+BF).

Here is the final result.

6’1” @ 240lbs @ 35% BF vs. 6’1” @ 240lbs @ 15% BF

At 6’1” @ 239lbs Kuc deadlifted 854lbs. If we assume that he got only 10% from roids, our natty infested with jello will have to lift 768lbs or 3.2 time his bodyweight.

What are the chances? Yes, a natural could deadlift 3 times his bodyweight if he is built for the lift and competes in a lighter weight class, but it is extremely unlikely to happen at 240lbs @ 35% body fat (the deadlift does not benefit as much from extra lard).

But since the experts say that Kuc was skinny, let’s use another man as an example – Ed Coan. He competed in many weight classes but did his best lifts as a 220lbs and 240lbs lifter.

Ed Coan deadlifting

At 5’6” and 220lbs Coan was very muscular. He was certainly not bodybuilding lean but not powerlifting fat either. Let’s say that he was 20% body fat, although it may be slightly less or more.

Do you really think that a natural can weigh 220lbs at 5’6” while remaining at 20% body fat? Even someone with an elite and extremely robust frame will have a very hard time breaking 200lbs at that height. Some light-boned men will weigh less than 135lbs @ 5’6” in a shredded condition. I don’t know how to say it without hurting feelings, but at 220lbs most natties who are 5’6” tall will surpass the 30% body fat margin.

Ultimately, we will have something like this.

5’6” @ 220lbs @ 30% BF vs 5’6” 220lbs @ 20% BF

Who wins? It’s a no-brainer considering that one of the two is at least 30% jello.

Steroids Can Increase One’s Strength Without a Significant Weight Gain

Many naive souls think that steroids can boost one’s strength only through excessive bodyweight gains, but that isn’t true.

Anabloc wonders such as Halotestin, Anavar, Winstrol, Methyl DHT , Trenbolone, Masteron, and Primobolan are considered drugs capable of adding strength without excess bulk.

How does that happen? Many of the drugs above produce muscle thickening without bloat. The diameter of the muscles does not increase, but they appear more massive since the density improves.

As a bonus, steroids make you aggressive and hungry…like a mean dog. Hence some of those drugs are also popular among fighters who want to stay in their respective weight class.

Ultimately, “lean roids” are just another advantage over the natural guy who competes in the same class. Both, the natty and the roid user weigh the same, but the latter is shorter, more muscular, thicker, fuller and angrier.

Realistically Naturals Will Compete In Lower Weight Classes

Since most naturals will have to become lords of the adipose tissue to match the weight of the pros of equal height, natties have no choice but to compete in lower weight classes.

For instance, 5’6” tall men will not be in the 220lbs class like Coan. Nor will light-boned 6’2” dudes lift as super-heavyweights.

Let’s say that we have a 5’11” natural who is comfortable weighing 190lbs @ 25% BF. What will be the body composition and height of his steroid rivals? More than likely, they will be shorter than him and will carry less fat.

If we have the following hypothetical situation:

5’11” @ 190lbs @ 25% BF vs. 5’7 @ 190lbs @ 15% BF

Who will win?

The dude on steroids since he is shorter, more muscular and therefore thicker at that weight. The roid brah has more thickness per inch of height and a better composition than the natty. Therefore, he is better suited to be a human crane. Will the difference between the two be 10%? There is no way of knowing unless this situation really comes to life, but since true naturals rarely if ever compete against roided brahs due to the pointlessness of a similar fight, we can’t know for sure.


You can’t say with certainty that steroids give only a 10% boost to one’s relative strength, for the fact that no natural can fill out his expected weight class without transforming into a jello bomb.

In his article, Nuckols compares tested records to untested records. What is the point of doing so when we all know that the tested records are as natural as a shark in a bottle? The truth is that it takes an extraterrestrial amount of money to cover all bases and even then there could be unnaturals remaining on the battlefield. It wouldn’t be unrealistic to assume that in most cases “tested” stands for “smaller doses”. If you need more proof, just go to one of those “drug-free” meets and count the men who look natural. Don’t forget to take your binoculars.

What about absolute strength?

Steroids can do wonders for one’s absolute strength. Imagine this – a 6’1” tall ectomorph who has a hard time breaking 170lbs without adding inches of fat to his waist has finished his intermediate stage with the following lifts – 1.8 BW squat, 2.2 BW deadlift, 1.2 BW bench press or 306lbs squat, 375lbs deadlift, 205lbs bench press. This is pathetic according to the starting strength standards of jello worshiping lifters and coaches, but a very realistic scenario for the average lanky boy who does not want to have protruding love handles and early forms of man boobs.

What do you think would happen if this man starts injecting and gains 50lbs of real muscle? He will weigh 220lbs at 6’1”. Let’s assume that his strength to bodyweight remains the same. His lifts will be – 395lbs squat, 485 deadlift, 265lbs bench press. That’s a 25% jump in every lift. Realistically, however, the increase could be even higher if the lifter deliberately trains harder to improve his strength. The 50lbs of extra muscle as well as the improved recovery ability can produce even more gains.

” a lord of the adipose tissue”

Please, do not bother commenting if you come from

If you are a beginner who has just found and is bulking to become a “useful human being” over 200lbs as advised by the barbell intellectuals, please don’t bother commenting, for I have already lived your infatuation.

The men on there classify anyone who isn’t at least 200lbs as a malnourished weakling that should up the calories in the hope to become a thick mutant.

As I have already said multiple times, this is a futile mission unless becoming a transporter of lard is your goal. Many natural martyrs who do this have a horrible strength to bodyweight ratio because they are trying to make up for the lack of muscle with fat. Their absolute strength might seem impressive but put in a weight class, they aren’t competitive at all because their rivals are carrying more muscle and less fat at a shorter height thanks to steroid abuse.


If Steroids Are Just The Finishing Touch, Why Are People Risking So Much By Taking Them? Are 10% really worth it?

If steroids were truly as unimportant as the experts want you to think, why are the pros risking so much to keep injecting?

Because steroids are very effective and part of many sports at the highest level.

That’s why. If the effects were minuscule, people wouldn’t put so much on the line for nothing.

Let’s say that you can squat 400lbs naturally. Would you roid up and mess up your organism just to squat 440lbs (a 10% increase) at the same bodyweight? Obviously, this would be an extremely low return on investment.

How Strong Can You Get Without Steroids?

In most cases, the lifts of a natty will fall within the following ranges:

SQ – 1.8 – 2.2 BW

BP – 1.3 – 1.8BW

DL – 2.5 – 3BW

The higher numbers are for lighter guys with very good proportions for the lift, resilient joints and a drive as high as the mountains.

If you wonder how much a natty can weigh in a lean condition, you can find my opinion in this article as well as in the book Potential: How Big Can You Get Naturally.

How Strong Can You Get With Steroids?

The only way to become a world-class lifter is to leave Nattyland. Otherwise, you will not be competitive. When you see that everyone in your weight class is more muscular than you despite being 5 inches shorter, you will know what’s up.

It’s true that genetics and work ethic matter, but even the most gifted natural will be destroyed by an average lifter who juices heavily.

How strong can a man become with steroids? Well, check out the records 🙂

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  1. Klitschko

    Great article. To this day I can’t understand why some people ridicule you natty table arguing that the numbers are pretty low, when in fact, let say someone natural at 6’1 weighing 86 kg in an ultra lean condition will look great in any gym, and you are very right most natties will never even achieve it. Everyone on the internet is 220 lbs lean and natty but in reality, of all the gyms I have been too, I havent seen someone with stats like that natty.

  2. Jakob

    Today I incline benched 105 KGs for 5 reps. No spot, no bouncing on the chest, no cheating. I’m pretty fucking proud of myself considering where I started (I used to be very skinny). One thing I’d like to criticize the article for is that you simply compare strength with bodyweight. The ratio of weight lifted to the own bodyweight is not linear. That means that it is easier for a 150 lbs guy to pull 450 lbs off the ground (even tho it’s impressive) than for a 220 lbs guy to pull 660 lbs. Otherwise, the world best strongmen would be “pretty weak” as they weigh close to 200Kg/440lbs and cannot deadlift 3 times their bodyweight.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Good job. Congratulations.

  3. T-Moron

    A perfectly served dose of reality, may the eyes of juicers never curse the article!

    Hats-off Truth Seeker.

  4. P. Nagy Balint

    The How Strong Can You Get Without Steroids? part is miscalculated, especially in the squats. The squat is more like 2.2-2.7, not 1.8-2.2. I’ve been powerlifting for 3 years only, in the 205 weight class (height 6’0″) and i can squat 475lbs, which is 2.32x my bodyweight, and i can still put 10-15lbs on my squat in 6 months, even thoug i have long femurs. The benchpress and deadlift numbers are not that bad. Maybe i would bump up the bench to 1.5-1.8 and the deadlit is pretty accurate for someone with average genetics, but as always there will be outliers.

    1. twp

      Great for you! Because for 3-4 years my squats falls low in nattyornot’s calculations, despite my strong DL. Very very slow progress despite my every other lift goes up.

      1. P. Nagy Balint

        I swam for 10 years and did 3 years of calsithenics before getting into powerlifting so i already had a solid ammout of muscle mass. Don’t worry, it will come, progress takes time. The name of the game is consistency.

      2. Fatman

        Leverages determine how far you’ll get in a lift. It isn’t uncommon for good deadlifters to lag on the other 2 lifts, or good bench pressers to struggle with the deadlift. Squat and bench also take a longer time to “mature”, for most people.

        Rather than get discouraged, embrace your strengths and train the crap out of your “good” lift, while trying to at least hit the “average” mark on the other two.

  5. Kierrow

    Great job! Support since the beginning. It’s not only about bodyduilding, it’s about Life. Thanks to share the reality and your vision. It ´ll be cool to write more philosophical article like on irongangsta. I think that toi exposed all bodybuilding lies!

  6. Timothy McIntyre

    10% difference due to steroids? What a joke. If Phil Heath had stuck to chicken breasts and broccoli, you would walk by him in the mall and probably not even notice him, or say “That guy looks pretty athletic, he has a nice body,” but instead he’s Mr. Olympia. What a fuckin joke.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      To be fair, he meant 10% difference if the two men are in the same class. Meaning, if you are competing in the 170lbs category against another man on steroids from the same weight class, the difference should be about 10%.

  7. Timothy McIntyre

    So I’ve been bodybuilding very hard for 30 years, natty, and I am 6′ tall and weigh 163 at 10% bodyfat, medium body structure. Let’s say Ronnie Coleman was almost 6′ tall, and he weighed 290 at 5% bodyfat. I would need to gain 127 lbs. to be in his class, and I would be about a zillion % bodyfat.

  8. Jack

    This is true… sad really. It is interesting. I read your book, “A haters synthesis” and I really am beginning to give up hope. It’s all a lie, we live on a farm and our labor is milk for the rich…. I guess the best thing to do is live for today…. before the masses realize all of the above and the skull cracking REALLY begins.

    1. Viva Steve!

      Looks like the skull cracking has begun. and its nothing compared to what is coming. We are going all the way to WORLD WAR or REVOLUTION,

  9. Timothy McIntyre

    It IS sad, and I started to give up hope too. It was so much easier to be motivated in the gym when I really believed I could look like Sylvester Stallone or one of the top physique guys. But you know what? I love bodybuilding. I love going to the gym and training and kidding around with the guys. I also like the discipline. And I look great. I get compliments all the time. Most chicks much prefer guys like me who have a great V taper and look leanly muscular. So I compare myself in the gym only to the other nattys, and I am very competitive compared to them. I won’t let the fakers get me down, I don’t hate them, I just ignore them. And more and more lifters are getting the message, and ignoring them, due to our Truth Seeker brutha!

    1. Frodo Lives

      Everything here is so temporary. Every material thing we own gets recycled or ends up in a landfill. Five hundred years from now will the house I’m in right now even exist? Even our natty bodies cease to exist. From this perspective excessive worry over such things seems silly.

  10. Chuck

    Is candytoe natty? Many of his fanboys vehemently assume so.

  11. jake

    Graet post, i have read a lot of your post but never have found examples of training, i like know what is your think about good training or what is your actual training,

  12. Robert

    It’s funny, when I was in my teens I so wanted to look like Arnie & co & that was the reason I got into lifting weights. I’m now in my mid 30s & love the “natty” look. I’m slim, lean & athletic & feel confident. I look at these bodybuilders in gyms now or these IFBB pros who get on stage in skimpy thongs & I laugh. What a crap pointless “sport” I literally laugh at juice heads who do this crap & juice heads in the gym. Its such a terrible look & all to look big! I find it strange I was obsessed with all that. I’m proud of my natural athletic frame & what I’ve achieved & although older never felt in better health.

  13. Artifically Natural

    There is a certain set of youtubers who swear all natties can build a ton of muscle in 6-12 months by using a “properly structured program”. All of these that they refer to are some variation of starting strength, stronglifts 5×5, blahino’s 5×5, etc.

    Within this time period you should be at or close to 2 plate bench, 3 plate squat, and 4 plate deadlift if you are of heights between, say 5’5-6’2 or something and are 20-35.. some claim this is EASILY achievable in 6 months…perhaps if you’re a bit older it’ll take a little longer, etc, etc..

    They say even if you’ve been training but haven’t hit those “intermediate” numbers above, you should just hop on this type of program until you do which should be fast…

    Please give your thoughts on this.. I know you feel Starting Strength is bad, but do you feel these other programs are just as you think “standard” is BS. They keep saying “strength gives you size” and people without these standards are wasting time on all these other lifts….etc…

    1. Thorgal

      That’s just bollocks. These programs target newbies who as you probably know gain strength and size in the 1st few months. When the newbie gains are over, good luck with these programs 😀

      No, anything advertized on youtube, blogs and magazines are meant to sell you something one way or another, or to sell your data without your consent to dubious 3rd parties.

      I hope this answers your questions.

      Lift for the “fun” of it, our body is meant to move and feel resistance. Using TS words: this is a universal truth. We are not meant to abuse our bodies with drugs and shit to look like something unnatural. it goes with foods and diet : we are not meant to become human whales barely able to tie shoe laces or walk without support. Movement and resistance belong to a basic layer of our reality, embrace them.

    2. Fatman

      Getting onto an intelligently structured powerlifting program like Starting Strength, Stronglifts or 5/3/1 will make you stronger and you will probably see some increased muscle size to go with it. The majority of average-sized male trainees with no health issues should hit the 2/3/4-plate “standard” within 6 to 12 months of dedicated training.

      This is simple logic. Structured training on the three powerlifts = more weight lifted in the three powerlifts. If you haven’t hit the 2/3/4 plate standard, you most likely ARE wasting your time on other lifts.

      Think of it as the minimum – if you’re going to school (gym), you should be able to read and write and do basic arithmetic (2/3/4 plates), even if you’re not planning to get advanced degrees or become a brain surgeon (IPF world record holder), or something.

      Where the programs go wrong is to claim “massive muscle size” gains alongside your gains in strength. Muscle mass gain is limited by your diet, lifestyle and genetics. The quick “mass” gains these programs promise are mostly water and bodyfat. You WILL gain a significant amount of muscle mass in this period too, but your body will not be able to hold onto it when you try to lose the fat – “bulk and cut” is fantasy.

      While not everyone is destined for big muscle gains, everyone can greatly increase their strength levels and hold onto them for a long time. If you train correctly and recover (eat and rest) adequately, you are guaranteed to gain strength, and you may also build some muscle along the way.

    3. jahnnythetrenbrah

      The 2 plate bench, 3 plate squat and 4 plate dead lift – well it sounds nice on a first glance, but in the end it doesn’t tell you anything. All the lifts depends on your body weight. For a light guy below 70kg a two plate bench would be already 1.45x his bodyweight while for a fatty with 110kg it would be only 0.92 BW. So if you weigh 65kg you most likely won’t be able to bench 2 plates as a beginner after a few month of lifting.

      So if they tell you you will be able to lift a certain weight without considering your bodyweight, its always just bloody marketing and doesn’t mean anything.

  14. Nj

    What do you think of Bulgarian Light?

  15. Brazilian Natty

    Tuesday this week was a National holiday in Brazil, so the gym was packed. What impressed me in this particular day was the unusually high amount of steroid abusers there. I felt sorry for them. There were two huge and angry guys that did not even look good, but what really impressed me the most were two short girls, really big and extremely masculine, ugly and prematurely aged faces, manly voice, etc. A sad freak show. And they are seriously risking their health, for what? Some are competing but will clearly not get anywhere. It is a world of illusions and unrealistic expectations. Maybe it is just Darwin, so time plays its natural selection.
    I’m 38 years old and have been training as a natty since I was 15. I’m a 6’1″ tall ectomorph with average genetics. I look fine, of course I wanted to be bigger and stronger, but it is what it is. I’m aware I’ll never achieve what the fake gurus and youtubers what us to believe is possible.
    Truth Seeker, keep up your amazing journey.

  16. vals

    Maaan, regarding drugs and bodybuilding. Go on over to todd lee’s channel and see how and what to inject to get bigger arms. “Oh it’s arms day, i’ll inject this and that into my left and right triceps, then take these pills (3 types of oral roids) preworkout, then right after the workout i’ll inject igf to boost growth.” Forgot to mention he does insulin and hgh also. And honestly, he’s a small dude… He trains his ass off in the gym and eats 4000 kcals and still has to inject plenty of stuff strategically in order to boost his arms gurdle. And now let’s talk about getting big arms as a natural… High frequency traing! Low volume! Focus on progressive overload! Microplates and intermittent fasting to boost HGH. Squatting for more testosterone production. Tribullus… Train every day, eat carbs postworkout to spike insulin! Sleep more! Gallon a milk a day! LOL! Just to be right under a TRT fuelled trainee. I took 500 mgs a week 8week then pct. Gained 11 kgs! Everything progressed! No changes to diet and training. I remember walking by the supplement store where skinny guys were buying the whole store and i smiled thinking about this website and that i spent 10% of the money the guys spent on whey, creatine, glutamine, bcaa, c4, vitamins, joint support and snake oil! I now only train for the fun of it. Yeah sure, you progress after a while, but you loose a lot of progress when you get sick or just stop for a while.

  17. urserious

    QUOTE : “In most cases, the lifts of a natty will fall within the following ranges:

    SQ – 1.8 – 2.2 BW

    BP – 1.3 – 1.8BW

    DL – 2.5 – 3BW””

    based on what ? did you personnaly achieves those numbers ? this is not very realistic. based on my experience, its more like this
    SQ – nobody ever squat
    BP – 80kg max if you’re 95 kg bw lol
    DL – never seen anybody do dat
    plus takin the fact that most are clueless about technique/programming/nutrition…
    naturally, u cant train for strength all year round, u’re broken in two after 3 weeks hard sessions. need three months to recuperate. not even kidding 6 years plstraining u’re still skinny, pretty much look like same, weights about 20 pounds more half of it is fat…but yeah keep believin

    1. P. Nagy Balint

      I hope you are just joking. if you are not than you are the one who has no idea about technique/programming/nutrition… Especially if you believe you can’t train for strength all year around. I live in a fairly small country and we have multiple powerlifters who has those numbers and get tested. I am one of them, 2 weeks ago at the Hungarian Nationals i totalled 622.5kg (1370lbs) at 93kg (205lbs) bodyweight. My numbers were the following:
      SQ 217.5kg (479lbs) 2.33x BW
      BP 155kg (341lbs) 1.66x BW
      DL 250kg (550lbs) 2.69x BW
      It’s called hard work, i’m 23 (183cm, 6’0) and i’ve been competing in different sports since i’m 6 with an average of 6 hours training in the past 17 years (mostly swimming, athletics and kayak). I started powerlifting 3 years ago and i still plan on improving my numbers. I hate when people say after 1 year of training that they just don’t have the genetics and give up. Pathetic… They don’t have discipline, not the genetics… They rather tell themselfs a lie and sit back in the couch and do nothing. I despise the people like you…

      1. valy

        He’s got a point! Most gym goers never train and eat properly. Vast majority follow a bro split with fluff and pump that lead to nowhere. And as for nutrition, they either eat big to get fat or stuff their faces with protein shakes or gainers which make them fat as well. And let’s be honest, most bros look into steroids before even beching 100 pounds… The online steroids forums are full of them. You can actually tell who really trains and has been training for a few years and who knows what he’s doing. The natty look is different from the cartoon look (huge shoulders and triceps / either bloated-watery or onion skin). On bro splits i got to 90 kg bench in 2 years. After a year break from the gym i got to 100 kg bench in 3 months using 5×5.

      2. Fatman

        “I hate when people say after 1 year of training that they just don’t have the genetics and give up. Pathetic… They don’t have discipline, not the genetics… ”

        Exactly. Lazy and undisciplined people use unrealistic expectations set by steroid users as an excuse to never put in any hard work in the gym or eat correctly. It makes them feel better about being small and weak.

        20-inch arms can’t be had without steroids. But whining about steroids is no excuse for not getting a 16-inch arm.

        Congrats on those lifts, BTW.

        1. Jonathan

          I am 16 and my arms are 16 inches…

      3. Govind

        I absolutely agree with you. This is truth about the genetic. Because it is all depend on hard work.

  18. Thomas

    Just wanted to say thanks for keeping it real. I am a 20 year veteran age 57 who Has been working out for many years I am 5.9 and weigh 160 and have never lifted more than 240 bench press for a couple of reps. I stopped going to the gym many years ago I could not deal with the steroids freaks who are in denial about there steroid use looking at me like what’s wrong with you. I now only workout with my brother and a couple of close friends at our homes keep sharing the truth about steroid use thank you. Tom

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Thank your for the support, Thomas.



    IM 172 CM 70 KG 10-11 BF%

    SQUAT 140 KG BW X 2
    DLFT 180 KG BW X 2.5


  20. Nenad

    I thought about injecting testosterone but in 7-10 years since testosterone levels drop significantly with aging process. I’m 37 but I look some 8 years younger. I think I haven’t reached my genetic potential yet because I wasn’t consistent in training when I entered gym for the first time at age of 22 and made insignificant changes in next couple of years. Back then I trained a little bit more and now I’m quite sure I was burned out occasionally and didn’t know the reason was too much workout (5 days a week) and bad recovery ( sleep deprivation). I was obviously misinformed.
    Prior to making decision of injecting myself with testosterone I decided first change the training, diet and get a plenty of sleep. I say plenty because everyone is different. There is no such a thing as fixed amount of sleep someone requires. You can read in articles that amount of sleep average adult needs is in range between 7 and 9 hours but I guess researchers didn’t count heavy deadlifting. For instance when I have more than 9 hours of uninterrupted sleep I don’t need any drug in weight room. Those training days are more than awesome. I remember once I slept 11 hours and had so much energy that day. I did the leg day and had energy for more.

  21. Matt

    This is the ultimate article. I wish some mainstream blogs or news sites would pick up on this. It could help mitigate the unrealistic ideas most people have about weight lifting and drugs.

  22. stephan

    Great article !

    37yo male here, I’ve been consistently lifting since age 18. That’s 19 years of natural lifting, with breaks of 1 – 2 months every year.
    Very light framed : 16 cm / 6.3″ wrist and 180 cm / 5″11 tall

    Leanest BW achieved : 66 kg / 146 lbs – six pack (far from the “diced” status however) – 35 cm / 13.8″ arms
    Biggest BW achieved : 76 kg / 168 lbs FAT – 37 cm / 14.6″ arms

    At 18yo, I was 58 kg / 128 lbs – 27 cm / 10.6″ arms

    Strongest dips : 5 X 5 with 1 minute rest : 35 kg / 77 lbs
    Strongest chins : 5 x 5 with 1 minute rest : 20 kg / 44 lbs, or 2 x 6 reps with 40 kg / 88 lbs.
    Strongest DL : 5 x 5 with 3 minutes rest : 136 kg / 300 lbs, or 136 / 300 x 15 (rest-pause), or 150 / 331 x 9 (rest-pause)
    Strongest military press : 5 x 5 with 1 minute rest : 65 kg / 143 lbs (very poor form).

    Other exercices I do are : curls, triceps and lateral raises. And that’s it.

    My brother who trains a lot less consistently, achieved a lean 80 kg / 179 lbs – 41 cm / 16.14″ arms, at the same height. Strongest BP : 5 X 5 with 1 minute rest : 105 kg / 231 lbs (natty too).

    Hope it helps !

  23. MJ

    Your natty numbers are good. After 3 years training (reaching basically maximum natty potential) I weighed 80kg, and my lifts were:

    Squat 165kg: ATG High Bar
    Bench 125kg
    Deadlift 210kg

    So the lifts fall right in line with your guidelines. I no longer weight train but do calisthenics to keep the body mobile and a lot of sprinting. I entered a gym for kicks about a year ago, after not training for two years. I can still bench 100kg for repetetions, that’s down to the maintenance pushups and weighted push ups I do. I feel a lot faster for stopping the PL bullshit as well.

    1. Matt

      What programs did you use to get there? I’m a solid intermediate and my modified Texas Method has pretty much stalled out.

  24. B1

    Just over 3 years training, weight 62KG at 164cm haven’t been lifting as constant as I wanted these past two years things are always getting in the way train mostly for strength,

    Deadlift 180KG
    Squat 130KG
    bench 92.5KG for 2

    i feel I could have lifted these numbers in my 2nd year. Now I’m traveling for 3 months around Asia so it’s hard.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Those are great numbers for your bodyweight, my friend. Good job.

    2. B1

      Its B1 here, i think when i said i had a 130KG squat i cheated a little meaning i didn’t go below parallel around that time i had a video of me squatting 125KG for 3 heavy singles below parallel.

      Current numbers:
      92.5KG bench x2
      137.5KG squat
      190KG deadlift

      trying to get my bench up this year and gonna try to hit 200KG deadlift meddle of this year at around 62KG BW

  25. Jeffrey Houska

    Life time natty here
    181 BW
    568 squat
    345 bench
    568 deadlift
    You’re numbers are wrong

    1. Cunt Licker

      Good numbers, but you’re about 25% better than a lifter with 1-2 years training at that bodyweight. Is it worth a lifetime of natty lifting to be 25% better?

  26. chris

    I tried one test-e cycle in my life. (It almost made me quit lifting all together when i came off because it sucked training natty in comparison) While i wasn’t impressed with the size gains i was surely very impressed by the strength and recovery it provided. The strength gains was by far and large the biggest eye opener. After about week 6 all my lifts just shot trough the roof. Broke all plateaus and increased my PRs by HUGE amounts.

    For the record i lost all size and strength gains when i came off. I got demoralized and started training less frequently as i came off.

  27. Andre

    Your strength standart too low bro, im 56 kg natty 5’4 and after 6years lift hit 2.1x bw high bar beltless back squat atg, 1.6xbw bench press and 3xbw beltless deadlift, you must consider leverage and equipment if your standart completely RAW without belt and full ROM i aggre buat in powerlifting Belt is mandatory and leverage like wide sumo squat, wide sumo deadlift is something that can boost the lift number

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