Why The Muscle Industry Does Not Want You To Know How Big You Can Get Naturally

| by Truth Seeker |

source: https://pixabay.com/en/admission-coupon-admit-buy-2974645/

The stores are full. The oil pumps are dancing to the beat of big corporations. The factories are constantly producing smoke, the sound of clashing metal and silence as sad as the tears of a dying soul.

When you stand in front of the mall, the doors open like robots and yet their motion seemingly carries affection cutting through the air. The sellers say “Hello, sir. How can I help you?”.

The router is blinking. The smartphone is singing. The doctor says “Does it heart here?”. Police sirens are filling the atmosphere. Big Macs are always available and taste the same wherever you go.

The airports are importing and exporting people. The planes are infesting the sky. The taxis are carrying the busy citizens through the arteries of the city…


Why do we get with the program?

There are three main pillars that ensure the functioning of the modern mechanism known as the merchant system.





If you don’t follow the rules, you’re excluded from the society. You become a part that simply has no place in the mechanism. Your only role is to serve as an example what not to do. Humans start to resent you and disregard your opinion completely. Once you stop playing your role, people quickly walk away from your life while labeling you as crazy. Even those the closest to you will not make an exception. Eventually, you will lose your status, friendships and toys. This will lead to a devastating loneliness that almost no human heart can handle forever.


The school system teaches about mitochondria and ancient history all day but gladly omits knowledge that doesn’t suit the agenda. As I told you in A Hater’s Synthesis, this results in smart idiots who can do incredibly complex tasks in a controlled environment but lack basic knowledge of the psyche and the world around them. Smart idiots are incapable of producing great change, for they don’t possess the ability to see through the mainstream concepts that have been enslaving the world.


Let me tell you the story about the loose chickens.

A group of curious tourists went to see a chicken farm. Most of the chickens were in small cages, but there were also a few running free.

“Did those chickens escape,” asked the tourists.

“No, they didn’t. We set them free on purpose. If all chickens are caged, they don’t produce eggs. But when some are free, they all do it,” replied the owner.

(I don’t know who is the original author of this story. I read it in an online comment a long time ago.)

What if I tell you that the system relies on the same principle to produce hope?

The famous musicians, sports players, actors, singers, entertainers, celebrities and other forms of modern heroes play the role of loose chickens. If those people didn’t exist, most individuals would be reluctant to do their job (produce eggs), for they will see no point in doing so.

Consequently, the grand architects invest a great amount of time and money (ours) in the creation and development of entertaining activities which act as dopamine factories working on the treadmill principle – you run, but everything happens in a sterile environment; you burn calories and your legs work as intended, but you don’t go anywhere [the masturbation effect].

For the same reasons, the system organizes reality shows for singers and other forms of entertainers. How come they never make a reality show for office cleaners or workers in an Apple factory? It is simply depressing. That’s why. The system does not benefit from saddening its servants.

So, what are we hoping to achieve?

We are hoping to become free/loose chickens ourselves so that we can enjoy the benefits of the system one day. Ironically, if we were all loose chickens, the system would fall apart because there wouldn’t be workers to engineer and produce the material pleasures and services that we are fighting for.

Ultimately, the three pillars (fear, ignorance, hope) result in the essential ingredient for control – obedience. If people aren’t obedient, the system would simply collapse for better or worse. This is why the generals put so much effort into elaborating strategies designed to keep humans subservient.

Anyone who criticizes the system is labeled as a bitter hater jealous of others’ successes. Most humans are too lost and brainwashed to realize what’s happening. They wouldn’t let themselves see the truth, for their whole lives would acquire the characteristics of a real hallucination. This is why they put even more faith in the system and keep pushing the rock.

Another common characteristic that many humans share is the false belief that the system is here to serve you. People are legitimately convinced that what we have right now is evolution’s best result. The system, however, is not here to serve you. It’s here to use you and urinate on your ashes. It does not have your best interest in mind. You are a tool.

The muscle cartel operates on the exact same principle.

Step 1. Install fear and doubt

At this stage, the system takes a sample of muscle apprentices willing to do almost anything in the hope to forge thicker muscle fibers and starts to install fear and hesitation in their heads. The muscle cartel wants you to believe that unless you follow the rules outlined by the mainstream establishment you will never get what you want. This is the reason for the post-workout panic, protein OCD and the never-ending analysis inhabiting the craniums of the muscle constructors.

“If something is not working, it’s your fault,” says the industry.

You don’t take the right amount of protein. You don’t do the right exercises. You don’t follow the right progression. You don’t go all the way. You don’t push hard enough. You don’t consume enough calories. You don’t scream properly during your sets. You use straps when you aren’t supposed to strap. You didn’t take the right supplements. You took the right supplements, but it wasn’t at the right time. You didn’t drink enough water. You drank too much water.

It’s always you. It’s never the system. The system is perfect. After all, it works for so many people. Just look in the magazines. They are full of big guys doing it right. What is your excuse?

Step 2. Spread ignorance and focus on “bureaucracy”

I am almost sorry to inform you that most of the training related info is focusing on variables that don’t matter as much you want them to. Everybody is talking about reps, sets and proper protein intake, but those values don’t make that much of a difference.

Every day the mainstream muscle media is producing article after article. What are they talking about? Haven’t they already said everything they had to say? They are essentially nitpicking. Bench with a wider grip. Bench with a closer grip. Do hamstring curls while lifting your butt a little bit to activate the glutes properly…etc. As if this is the reason why naturals are not as big as the pros. As if the pros are doing everything right.

This is what I call – muscle bureaucracy. Muscle scholars are spamming the world with recycled info every day while knowing very well that their adjustments make zero difference when it comes to real growth. Imagine Ronnie Coleman overthinking his grip on lat pull-downs or something like that. It’s funny to even say it.

Step 3. Install and preserve hope

Hope is an essential ingredient. Without it, the humanoids get depressed and become extremely unproductive. When you lose your motivation to continue the fight, you simply stop. Would you hunt if you know that you will never eat your prey? It’s counter-intuitive.

This led to the creation of the so-called muscle heroes. Those would be the men in the magazines, movies and YouTube clips.

People are told that they can have an extraterrestrial musculature too if they play by the rules (made by the system). Naturally, the dreamers start to derive inspiration from the promoted success stories and become obedient (doing the right sets at the right time and drinking the right kind of whey at the right moments).

Nonetheless, installing hope isn’t enough. Humans are not that stupid. We have strong instincts and an ability to think critically that activates occasionally. Therefore, extra measures are required to preserve the mechanism.

Those who wake up and begin asking questions are silenced quickly if not by the system directly by the large number of fanboys and beginners who still have faith in the doctrine. Since every year a generation of boys turns 17 and starts writing “how to build big muscles” in Google, it all works just fine. Nothing has changed since Weider and Hoffman’s time – the marketing is the same – the only difference is the delivery method (mainly social media, forums, sites and YouTube).

Killing Hope

If the natural lifters know that they will never come even remotely close to the size and strength of their heroes, they would lose their motivation to train. What is the point of learning from a millionaire if you are not going to earn good money yourself? What is the point of learning pick-up if you are never going to unite with nice girls in your life? What is the point of working if you will never get paid? What is the point of going to the movies if the screens aren’t working?


This is why the industry does its best to conceal the real natural limitations – those would destroy a lot of false hope in the hearts of the young muscle ninjas who listen with open mouths when steroid gurus are presenting growth strategies on YouTube.

As a result, most attempts to expose the actual natural capacities are ridiculed by the mainstream industries, its aware pawns and the brainwashed kids who simply do not know any better and want to believe in miracles.

Strategies Used By The System To Preserve Hope

Digging For Old-Timers

Obviously, it’s extremely hard for the industry to hide the fact that modern bodybuilders inject. Weighing 220lbs at 5 ft 7 while carrying 8% body fat makes even the most clueless lifters skeptic. To fix this problem, the muscle cartel goes back in time (think the Arnold era and before) to dig for old-timers who were huge when steroids were supposedly present only in the wet dreams of scientists with broken hearts.

This method would work if it wasn’t for the fact that steroids have been in use since the 40s. Many of the old-timers chosen as poster boys for steroid-free physiques were actually taking early forms of testosterone.

Promoting Male Physique Models

According to many, the so-called physique shows save the day by presenting an attractive physique that does not require the import of performance-enhancing drugs. Of course, this is nonsense. Most male physique models carry as much mass as a bodybuilder from the 70s. Unless you have a ridiculous frame naturally, you will be hard-pressed to stand out next to modern male models. Also, let’s not forget that King Tren is still King.

Advancement in Training and Nutrition

What changed? What is the difference between today and yesterday?

Powders, books and machines.

Back in the day, there were fewer supplements and the quality was worse. In addition, the lifters didn’t have access to as many machines and books on programming. Guess, what? This is not enough to induce growth beyond the natural human abilities.

Supplements? As effective as food at best.

Training equipment? The compounds are still the best. You ain’t getting a 55-inch chest thanks to a chest pressing machine.

Programming books? You mean overthinking books?

Once again – naturals are not smaller than the roid bros because they don’t do the right number of sets and reps. Sure, good programming can make you stronger, but it does not have the capacity to break the natty chains either.


“He has better genetics,” screams the industry when angry lifters start asking questions.

As expected, this is just another attempt of the system to hide its inability to deliver the promised results. When you are printing magazines showcasing 21-inch arms while most naturals have a hard time reaching 15 inches in a lean condition, genetics could be an effective way to save face.

Yes, some people have insane genetics. It’s true. But no one has the genes required to build the mass seen on the pro stage. Moreover, many owe their “amazing genetics” to low body fat levels and regular drug intake.

P.S. If you want to know more about the natural muscular potential, you can check out the book:

Potential – How Big Can You Get Naturally

The book that the industry does not want you to read.

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  1. MB

    Good article.
    I have a question that maybe is a little bit of topic:
    What are ‘testosterone boosters’. I believe I’ve seen it once in an supplement advert.
    @truthseeker: I’ve sended an email, but I didn’t had feedback for a while.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Testosterone boosters are useless for muscle building purposes.

      In general, if you are going to boost your test naturally, do it with food.

      1. MB

        So it’s a product that does nothing then? Just powder?

        1. Ok

          There is no such thing as test boosters.
          You can not manipulate an hormon with over the counter bullshit product and expect to trigger growth.

        2. Truth Seeker Post author

          If your goal is growth, it won’t do it.
          If your goal are erections, it may help.

          1. MB

            I was just wondering what it was without having a goal in mind.

    2. oz

      @Truth Seeker: How do you boost testosterone through food?

      1. Truth Seeker Post author

        Meats, eggs.

  2. Joos Liftsteen

    But Truthseeker, I just spent a year lifting and got big and buff so fast.

    My meteoric rise to muscle stardom just started and I’m rocketing at near light speed. Youtube won’t know what to do with me.

    Don’t tell me I’m not going to get huge after I run a hypertrophy program. I’ve been training for strength because they told me a natural could only get bigger by getting stronger.

    But now I’ll be training special for hypertrophy and I’m gonna pack on mass just like my Yootube heroes!

    I’ll show them and join them!
    Hypertrophy here we come!

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Go for it, brah.
      The sky is the limit.
      It’s all about how bad you want it.
      I see that you want it pretty bad.
      That’s good, brah.

  3. truthhunter

    you should do an article on ‘The golden one’, was formerly known as latsbrah , he claims to be natural but i doubt it since the guy is weighing 95-100kg and is fairly lean like 12% bodyfat ish

  4. Kumar

    Hello there.
    I have been reading your articles with great interest. You have a great talent in using words. I have 2 questions: 1. Are your writings just a hobby or are they really your point of view. & 2. I want to know your view on nutrition; equally as important as exercise I think.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      1. Yes, they are my point of view.
      2. It is technically more important for your body composition.

  5. MB

    Who are the best real natural athletes (men/woman)?
    I would like to see some pictures to have an idea. Especially what I can expect with low bodyfat like 10%

    1. Bob

      I’ve seen old pictures of Eugene Sandow and others from that time period….just go to google images. They’re natural by default of the time period and outstanding physiques. I’m guessing that’s about as far as human muscle hypertrophy can go. I’d be happy with that. Some folks from the 40’s to the 60’s don’t pass the sight test.

      1. Bob

        Ooops…it’s Eugen Sandow….

  6. twp

    I am from Bulgaria where steroids are legal(I think in every Balkan country they are) and no one gives a fuck if you take them, because of that a lot of guys don’t hide it at all. Pretty common word is “I will make a cycle or two for the summer when I go to the beach”. Here having a big arms is a big deal and it is not rare to see a 17 yo kids having an 18 inch arms with weak back and chest development and no legs at all. Anyway I would say in Eastern Europe countries people are redpilled about the steroid usage vs the west where people have on idea what is going on in fitness industry.

  7. Klitschko

    Great article as usual, but same old question, Eric bugenhagen natty or not?

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Probably not if you are asking, but I have to look into it.

      1. MB

        The best natural as far I know is Wendy Lindquist.

        1. Truth Seeker Post author

          Not sure if serious 🙂

          1. MB

            I’m serious.

          2. MB

            I do have to add that from some pictures and video’s I have got a little bit doubts. But if you train hard and eat right a lot is possible.

          3. MB

            Also people who are not very tall can more easily build muscle and give often the impression to look more muscular. And creatine helps too. So why would it not be possible?

          4. MB

            I just read the creatine article and perhaps I was wrong about that. This gives me more doubts.
            @Truth seeker Can you give your opinion? Because I really don’t know anymore what is achievable naturally. I always was 100% convinced she was natural.

          5. MB

            @Truth Seeker Why did you doubt if I was serious?

        2. Glove

          This lady is far away from a case we could discuss: natty or not? If you want to get this look naturally forget about it.
          My advice is to leave the internet for a while and go out in the “real world” of training. Visit the gyms and discuss with the ladies who are really performing powerlifting or BB. Compare their appearance with the ladies who are just shaping up. Together with your own experiences in training and dieting (better don´t diet and eat healthy natural food) after a while you get a clear picture of what is possible and what is not.

          1. MB

            Thank you for your feedback 🙂
            If that’s true I have to re-think things. Perhaps I had a wrong image. I’m pretty naive in this kinds of stuff.
            I asumed she was natural because in her best off season shape she had about 15 inch biceps (for 5 foot 3) and during contest they became smaller to 12,5 inch. That seemed normal to me according what I read here about naturals getting smaller when they are lean.
            The only thing what made me doubt was that in some pictures she had superlow fat percentage while still having muscle size and that confuses me.
            I have seen her and she doesn’t look like an IFBB pro.
            I’m not sure what to conclude now. Do you really think she did a few cycles with steroids?

          2. MB

            @Glove What made you think this is not achievable naturally? Woman can build a six-pack too right? And they can lower their fat percentage too. If you see what Eugen Sandow achieved then woman must be capable to get an awesome look naturally. Or am I wrong?

          3. Glove

            Do you know the name Lisa Lyon? First IFBB world champion in 1979. Was she clean? I don´t know. Please compare her with the muscle ladies from today.
            As soon as women have clearly visible muscles it´s the first hint on steroids. If they are under a certain limit of bodyfat and you can see shredded muscles and these ladies have remarkable muscle mass you can be sure that they take steroids.
            If they have a normal bodyfat percentage in combination with bulky muscles its for sure a result of drugs. As soon they look more manly (face and everything) than ladylike you can be sure that they ABUSE steroids.
            If shredded natural men have no remarkable muscle mass how can women have???
            I understand that today a number of women want to have muscles like male bbler or models. Sorry, absolutely impossible for ladies with a normal hormonstatus. Sportive figures: yes! Manly muscles: NO!

            There are some Youtube videos you can see the difference.

          4. MB

            @Glove This is very interesting to know. But if that’s true, then it means that women can’t really have shredded abs. Or biceps that look big and with much definition at the same time.
            So if a woman is natural and very gifted and reach her maximum limits she would look like a fitness woman, but not like someone where people would say: ‘look at her arms, it must be a bodybuilder’
            Sorry if I am hard to convince, but with this new information my believe system gets a serious dent.

          5. MB

            She says that it is possible naturally thanks to her genetics and discipline.

          6. joe santus

            MB — even IF it is true she can get that physique “because of her genetics and discipline”, it’d then be equally true that her genetics are extremely anomalous among women, and would be true that, NO, 99% of women can never get that shredded-with-clearly-defined-abs look unless they use steroids and other PEDs, no matter how disciplined they are.

      2. Klitschko

        Truth seeker, anxiously waiting for your article on Eric whenever you find time.

  8. Victor

    “muscle bureaucracy” is a very clever term

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Thank you for the support, Victor.

  9. James

    Another great article brother, loving the consistent articles! Hitting 2018 hard and opening up more eyes.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Thank you for the support, James.

  10. Matt

    About your point on New Equipment Hype, Dan John is big on just focusing on movements : Hip Hinge, Squat, Press, Pull, and Carry. It does not matter if your doing those movements with barbell, bodyweight, dumbells, Kettlebells, heavy stones, bands, cables, weight vests, wheel barrels (with out the wheel), sandbags, rings, a backpack with books, even those weight machines, etc… Our bodies can not tell as much as we think as for as far as resistance training, and even more if we can not do more than 10 reps of the movement before failure. Granted Barbells is the most used and efficient way to strengthen the body and build muscle. It is not the only means to do the above mentioned and get results.

    On a side note, their are very few articles on Planche Push ups, Human flags, Iron Cross, Pistol Squats, and Muscle ups, because they are much harder to master than deadlift, squat and benchpress, but can build muscle and strength just as well as the beloved barbell. I am sure intimidated by those movements for sure, but they can be effective for those who put the time and effort into it.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Those gymnastic movements cannot be achieved by tall people. For the vast majority of the population, the good old barbell + the classic bodyweight exercises (chin-up + dips) are better.

      1. Matt

        I agree with your point that barbell and/or bodyweight are the way to go off of personal experience. I don’t personally do the gymnastic movements and really basing this on articles I have read. I have personally seen alot of benefit from chins and pushups which are lighter forms of gymnastic . I was trying to say you can do the basic movements (Hip hinge, Squat, Press, Pull, Carry) with other means of resistance but they are in most cases not as effective as the standards but could be depending some factors.

    2. Fatman

      “Granted Barbells is the most used and efficient way to strengthen the body and build muscle.”

      They’re not, though. When you do compound lifts, your body will adapt and rely more on the muscles that are already dominant. So your big muscles get bigger and the underdeveloped ones stay underdeveloped. If you’re into heavy lifting, this can even be detrimental, i.e. lead to injury. Isolation exercises have their place.

      If you look at e.g. the world’s top squatters (in any not-obese weight category), most of them have unimpressive leg development, especially quads. Even in steroid users, compound exercises do not always lead to muscle growth. There’s a reason why bodybuilders shun barbell work, for the most part.

      Barbell exercises have one big advantage over advanced bodyweight moves, which is progressive overload. Very few people progress to a planche pushup or an iron cross, almost no one who is not tiny and light.

  11. guest1

    This is true for most people, however, in my experience, a relatively significant minority of people (3-5%) do have excellent genetics. However, a lot of them just never reach their genetic limit because they already have decent physiques and have no desire to go all the way.

  12. Stephen

    Truthseeker, I appreciate what you do, and beleive the entire fitness injury is largely just snake oil.
    I do believe you massively under estimate what can be achieved naturally though. It is more than possible for a natural to be benching 3 plates, squatting 4 and deadlifting 5. Obvisouly this would take a few years, depending on genetics, training, diet, disipline etc but its more than achievable.
    The squat and deadlift I would say could go as high as 5 and 6 plates respectively with out gear (I have seen it my self, though have not personally achieved it).
    Anything over 3.5 plates on the bench would be difficult, especually at a low body fat with out gear, but again is possible.
    Strength and size arent the same thing though. I grew much more in the chest benching 90lb dumbells than I did benching a 275lb barbell.
    Anyway, you sell natural bodybuilding short.

    1. twp

      And I think you underestimated the time needed to get really strong. Few Years ? I think majority of men would never hit these numbers even if they train properly. If you give some young(preferable mid puberty) gifted guys 5 years they will reach these numbers, but I think no more than ~20% of guys are capable to do this.

      Roids hugely distorted what is possible naturally.

      1. Truth Seeker Post author

        You can get some of those lifts naturally if you are built for the lift and train for years. Otherwise, the only option would be to acquire master obesity.

        For instance, I know 100% that I will never bench 3 plates naturally unless I get as fat as a sumo wrestler. I am just not built for that lift.

        Getting to a 5 plate deadlift is the most realistic for me.

        1. Christian

          My cousin at 17 years old benched 350 @ 185 lbs and I benched 315 at 22 years old @ 175 lbs. We never used drugs, we did take weight gain powder and liver tablets back in the 80’s. My cousin was built for the bench press and had a great chest and arms with the Arnold look. I was simply lean with abs and that look in the 80’s was not in style as its today. I benched 315 again in my late 30’s but at a weight of 205 lbs and also deadlifted 450 and could squat 400 lbs so its possible to reach those lifts naturally.

      2. Fatman

        “Roids hugely distorted what is possible naturally.”

        Not so much when it comes to strength training. Physique-wise, absolutely – a guy who doesn’t lift and takes steroids will gain more muscle than a guy who lifts and doesn’t take steroids. But the old 3/4/5 plate standard should be achievable by naturals of average height and weight.

        What really distorts numbers in powerlifting (besides drugs) is the height/weight of the lifters, i.e. “power-midgetism”. E.g. Ed Coan weighed around 220 lbs., but he’s only 5’4″ or so tall. So while he lifted in the 220lb category, his bodily leverages were closer to those of a superheavyweight, and his lifts reflected this. A six-foot lifter weighing 220 lbs. has almost zero chance reaching Coan’s numbers, steroids or not.

        1. Glove

          “3/4/5 plate standard is achievable for standard guy.” o.k. Supposed is would be true: What do you think super talented guys
          (not very tall, heavy, super genes) will lift naturally? 10% more? 20%, 50%???
          Short top athlets are always capable to lift very heavy weights with relatively low body weight. True. So the coefficient between body weight and lifted weight is always higher. Powerlifting, Weightlifting, the same. Same with natural or drug using lifters.
          What I want to say is: from what level we are talking when we are talking about top naturals and top drug using lifters??? Top drug users is easy. Have a look into the results of powerlifting championships. Top natural lifters? Not so easy…

          1. Fatman

            “Supposed is would be true: What do you think super talented guys
            (not very tall, heavy, super genes) will lift naturally?”

            This is a hard call to make. Guys who are good at lifting weights and achieve competitive results are likely to start using steroids because they want to be able to remain competitive. This distorts results, because the best lifters are almost always removed from the natty pool.

            I believe that trainees who are natural and built for lifting can hit 4/5/6 plates (at a BW between 190 and 220 lbs.). Maybe not necessarily in all 3 lifts, but in the one or two they are built for. E.g. a 4-plate bench and a 5-plate squat, but not a 6-plate deadlift, or someone with a weak bench might achieve a 5P squat and 6P deadlift, etc. This is just my opinion based on my own training (drug free) and training with others (some drug free, some not).

          2. Glove

            o.k. I agree with you.
            In my opinion with a few very important modifications in opposite to yours:
            4 plates in bench press is extemely difficult. I wouldn´t say: impossible.
            10 kg more than the world record holder I personally trust in. His bw was about 120kg and he´s short.
            But as said before: you never know.

            5 plates in squats and 6 plates in deads is possible. A little bit below this world record holder.
            I would say: NOT BAD!!!

            Those numbers with 190 lbs (about 85 kg) bw as an all time natural: impossible! Absolutely unrealistic.

          3. Fatman

            “Those numbers with 190 lbs (about 85 kg) bw as an all time natural: impossible!”

            Maybe, maybe not. A few years ago I followed the website of a very talented young powerlifter who was adamantly against drugs. He weighed in at just under 200 lbs., had a competition raw bench of 405 and a squat of 505 (pounds). But he is only 5’5″ tall and built like a fire hydrant, Ed Coan style.

      3. Stephen

        If strength is your sole aim, and youre on gear and only benching 3 plates, there is something seriously wrong.

        If physique is your goal, and you care about benching 3 plates, again, there is something seriously wrong.

  13. Matt

    So, what can I actually naturally achieve in terms of strength without drugs, obesity, or sacrificing endurance and all life outside the gym? I’m a 5’7″ male, 153lbs right now.

  14. Glove

    Some years ago I was in correspondence with a guy who won the world championships in natural powerlifting. His height was 175cm. Bodyweight 120kg (about 265lbs)
    Bench: 170kg
    Squat: 240kg
    Dead: 270kg
    In my hometown there is a person who has a very well known Youtube channel. He is definitely HUGE. 300 lbs. Of cause he is fat but he has a more than solid frame. Best bench is 167kg.
    These two persons pretend to be drugfree and I believe they are drugfree. Needless to say that both persons are lifters for a long time. And both persons are really gifted.
    Many years ago I read an article about John Kuc. He was/is a powerlifting LEGEND! After stop to taking drugs his bench press was 190kg.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Stop = usually low doses. Plus, he was a freak even among roid users. To this day, people can’t touch him. Average dudes will never have this.

      Also, the bodyweights above (120-140kg) would require most naturals to be like 40% body fat.

    2. Fatman

      “HUGE. 300 lbs. Of cause he is fat but he has a more than solid frame. Best bench is 167kg.”

      That’s a bench press 30 kilos over their bodyweight. To achieve it, one does not need to be on drugs, or particularly gifted for the lift.

      The same goes for Kuc’s 190kg bench. At SHW, definitely achievable without steroids, I’d even dare to say average. Can’t remember 100%, but I believe the bench was his weakest powerlift.

      1. Glove

        130 kg body weight with 167 kg benching sounds easy. Such a big guy and just 37 kg bench more than his body weight. That´s nothing people think. You train a little bit and eat a lot and then 167 kg shouldn´t be a problem. Reality is different. Do you think this guy has this high body weight just for fun? No. He reached his genetic limit and now he DESPERATELY tries to get a LITTLE BIT BETTER. What happens: he has to gain 1 kg bodyweight to have 1 kg more on the bench.

        Yes. Kuc´s “weakest” lift was the bench. As long as 600lbs raw bench are regarded as “weak” or “average” you might be right.
        Believe me: benching 190kg ALL TIME NATURALLY sounds easy with the calculator in the hand in front of the computer.
        In the reality it´s impossible for 99,9% of all. Whether their body weight is 220 or 300 lbs. Doesn´t matter.
        190 kg bench naturally “average”. Are you sure??? Do you really think that Kuc is “average” in ANYTHING what has to do with power???
        But I know there are “experts” in the net who are promising “average lifters” that they can bench 200kg easily after 7 years of training.
        Sorry. Absolute bullshit. Believe me. I know this scene since 45 years and I have seen many and a lot. From the beginner to the some extremely successful lifter and bbler.
        If you want to go over a certain limit which is much lower as optimistic lifters think drugs are the only answer.
        After my gains within the first year I was convinced that it wouldn´t be a problem to bench 200kg. I understand that young lifters think like that. But to find out your natural limit is never funny if you are ambitious.

        1. Fatman

          “Yes. Kuc´s “weakest” lift was the bench”

          I was wrong about this, must have confused Kuc with some other old school lifter.

          “190 kg bench naturally “average”. Are you sure???”

          For a person weighing almost 150 kgs (Kuc) with the muscle memory of bench pressing over 270 kgs and a history of steroid use, 190 is pretty average. Kuc was not an “all time natural” either. For the average guy weighing in at 80 kgs, 190k is extremely advanced… but that’s not John Kuc. I don’t get the point you’re trying to make.

          1. Glove

            No. You were right.
            Kuc benched with bodyweight 153 kg 272,5 kg in 1971.
            Later in 1974 in the 110kg class between 220 -227,5 kg (NOT steriod-free)
            Again: John Cook bw 110, bench 227,5kg (110kg REAL muscles)
            “For the avarage guy weighing in at 80 kgs, 190 kg is extremely advanced”
            No. It´s not extremely advanced. It´s extremely impossible.

            Some people may trust in numbers they read in list of WDFPF. (drug free powerlifting)
            I´am not!
            In the 90kg class world record is 208kg. The only drug free thing is the name of this organisation.

  15. Luciano

    Hey nattyornot, I would like you to watch a youtube channel called Natural Gallant Bodybuilding. He is natural.

    1. adrb

      From my little experience, benching 2x BW is achievable for… virtually nobody 😉 It’s different for squat or dead lift, where you can go beyond that point. But again going beyond 3xBW? Highly unlikely without any “magic”.

  16. Donne the Conquerer

    The one thing that gets lost in these conversations is that there is always an anomaly out liar in any general analysis, including muscular size, skeletal structure and symmetry, though obviously no mortal human being can aspire to replicate such a specimen by altering training, diet, etc. Just like being 7’6″ tall (or taller), there may be some mutant that can look like he’s on a mother load of drugs and be drug free, though freaky vascularity at that size would never be so pronounced (as it is with drugs) with such specimens.

    For example, Sergio Oliva is said by many within the muscle industry to have been the most gifted and freakiest bodybuilder that ever lived, and perhaps if drugs never had been invented he still would look unbelievable, by any measure, to a pair of human eyes (though the unbelievable standard would be set much lower, respectively). And of course, Sergio was on steroids and quite vocal and open about it, but many will tell you that when he was a green horn defected from Cuba he possessed the most ridiculous biceps & v-taper ever observed on a human being.

    Note: Amazingly, Sergio claimed that he had a twin brother back in Cuba that was considerably BIGGER than he was at the time he immigrated from his homeland.

    Still, such people are as rare as 8′ giants; they exist from time to time, but the likely hood of bumping into such a human being would be significantly remote.

    I bring this up because there are exceptions to any rule, but that’s all these are: “exceptions”. As stated, in all likelihood, you will never encounter such a person throughout the course of a lifetime (unless you have a passion and profession in cryptozoology).

    1. Glove

      Interesting point. If every human beeing would lift weights seriously we would see some very strong and bulky copies.
      So nobody knows what is REALLY possible if those outperformers are taken into account.
      Some endocrinolists might know…

      1. Donne the Conquerer

        And here is something else to think about: If PED’s never were discovered, how much more would we know about training, dieting, etc? Every competitor would be “natural”, and the true genetic mutants would really shine as amazing (and unsuall) freaks of nature.

        Where would that freak and unusual ceiling be for the gifted 0.0001%? How would the average someone, dedicated to proper diet and training, look after over 50 years of living the bodybuilding lifestyle? What would the average (and not so average) human body truly be capable of achieving within the human realm of unassisted training?

        Perhaps TruthSeekers comments about the upper limitations of the human body (from a development standpoint, respectively) are right, as we can only speculate at best, because chemicals have muddled those waters.

    2. joe santus

      …and, regarding pre-1954 bodybuilders with enviable mass and proportions (e.g. Sandow, Reeves), the message the muscle industry deliberately minimized or avoided even back then is this:
      “He’s a genetic anomaly and therefore 99% of you can never build a physique anything close to his, not even if your dedication, consistency, intensity, training protocol, nutrition, and recovery protocol are all optimal and perfect and you bodybuild for ten years.”

      1. TheFinisher

        What a load of bollocks. Your arbitrary comments reek of laziness, ‘99%’ ’10 years’ really. If you actually trained in a gym instead of your shed you’d actually see how big guys are in gyms today and how they train. They are not all ‘1%’ God tier ‘genes’ or on drugs, they simple train in a fashion that has progressed through time. High volume splits are common, most people are using them. You maintained your physique because you didn’t increase your volume, in time. The people with poorer genetics need to do MORE not less.

        If you had spent more time researching how to train for maximum size and less time researching ‘PED’s’ you might have actually looked like a bodybuilder.

        1. joe santus

          LOL…At least your rhetoric’s improving, FINISHER. You’re definitely honing your inflammatory tactics. Maybe, a little more polishing and you’ll be ready to launch your own website? Kudos!

          1. Glove

            LOL …. and every day the marmot greets!
            He´ll sell T-shirts with a print like

          2. TheFinisher

            The low volume trainers have arrived with their self admitted 15 inch arms ‘LOL’ing at someone bigger than them. Has it sunk in yet?

            Glove, have you found out what the difference is between a preacher curl and a concentration curl? I’ll wait.

            If I had a website I wouldn’t be able to compete with the ‘less is more’ crowd – Stuart Mcrobert’s ‘HARDGAINER’ or Dr Darden’s ‘HIT’ because HARD WORK DOESN’T SELL.

            Everyone wants to be big on here, yet no one wants to put forth the effort.

          3. Glove

            Finisher, do you really think that it makes any difference whether you make preacher curls, concentration curls, hammer curls or any other f***** kind of curls???
            Maybe for Arnold or somebody of his kind. Definitely not for you.

            Do you think that it worth to make yourself a clown to get a little attention here?
            Why do you bother us with the same bullshit you are telling 10,20 30 x times?
            Why are you stealing our precious time?
            Become a man.
            Don´t be the blabbermouth you are now!

          4. TheFinisher

            Yes it does matter, are you that fucking thick?
            Hammer curls work the outer head of the biceps, Preachers work the inner head, concentration curls work the peak. Is it any wonder you were never big?

            Yes it worked for Arnold and every other damn bodybuilder who know what the fuck they are doing, including me.

            The only clowns on here are you small people, crying about steroids and ‘gene’s’ and yet refuse to acknowledge what the majority of bodybuilders do.

            I’ve put the work in like a man. you quit, you gave up! Stop making yourself look even more stupid.

          5. Glove

            Finishers story time!
            Dear children, take care!
            Since I make concentration curls my biceps is so peeeeeaky!!!

          6. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

            Yep, I built bigger biceps than you ever could. Stay skinny.

  17. MB

    I have a question:
    When someone start using steroids. And then they stop again, does that mean that they again can find their natural original potential? Or does the AS changes their body enough so they can achieve more than their natural potential after they stop using AS.

    1. twp

      I think steroid usage boost your muscle mass and strength even after they are stopped, contrary to what most people say.

      Olympic athletes do it this way – they stop cycling when they are near doping tests and competition. And whey they are off season they do steroid cycles which benefit them when they are off cycle on competitions.

      Also google “Steroids can benefit athletes for a decade after use” This is really interesting.

      1. MB

        Thank you for your respond.
        I followed someone who I always thought was natural and after reading all these articles I got serious doubts. Based on the signs I have to conclude she wasn’t always natural.

    2. twp

      If PEDs where never never discovered the biggest roiders now would be still the biggest guys without roids, because genes.
      And without PEDs existing there would be no fitness industry, because there will be no hype about these huge muscular shredded guys.

      1. Fatman

        “If PEDs where never never discovered the biggest roiders now would be still the biggest guys without roids, because genes.”

        I hear juicers use this argument all the time, but am a bit skeptical. Responsiveness to steroids is different from responsiveness to training. Some very average guys who never achieved much naturally “blow up” on steroids.

        1. twp

          Yea this a good point too. We will always have this one guy who have insane response to steroids.

          1. joe santus

            Among national and world class bodybuilders, an extreme response to drugs is the norm — their exceptional response is typically why (if they have the proper skeletal structure and muscle-belly lengths for aesthetic proportions) they’re able to build the outlandish mass they carry and compete at that level.

            Often the response of national and world class guys is so much higher that they can build more mass on smaller dosages of steroids than many wanna-be guys can build taking much larger dosages. (That’s not to say they take “small” dosages, but that they can take smallER dosages yet build more muscle.)

    3. joe santus

      Some research indicates that, at least for certain individuals, long-term use of anabolic steroids at even moderately high doasages may long-term (though not necessarily permanently) increase the number of satellite cells (which repair and regenerate muscle); and, increase the number of nucleii in muscle cells (which enables the muscle to grow bigger).

      Those increases might not be huge, but can be significant enough to allow a person who uses steroids but then quits to have the potential for slightly more maximum muscle mass than he’d have had if he never used the drugs.

  18. ethnvine

    Great article, I recommend Noam Chomsky’s “REQUIEM FOR THE AMERICAN DREAM” documentary and also “Inside Job”, both these explain how big corporations delude the people. I think what “Truth Seeker” writes is an informal version of Noam Chomsky’s doc (it also discusses about confusing people to make irrational decisions). Keep up the great work. It will be great if you can add reference to these in your works. Thanks.

  19. Jack

    Hey man, can you do a FULL condensed article on EXACTLY what is possible (using physical images, and all the data/numbers) vs what is highly unlikely to be natural in full totality (height, weight, bmi, musculature, the other stat you always use in the 20’s cannot remember what it’s called…). Just one big FUCK YOU article to the naysayers? Because i am sooooo tired of seeing people who I KNOW are on steroids just LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH and as soon as… nevermind YOU of all people know where I am going with this, LOL.

    1. Joos Liftsteen

      The best thing you can do is go lift on a careful routine of progressive overload for a few years.

      Get strong and balanced across your body.

      Having done this, you’ll gain a clear sense of what’s possible and what’s not.

      With that in hand, you’ll find peace with all the fake natties’ lying.

  20. MB

    When we go back 10 or 15 years ago, is it possible then that a female natural bodybuilder can be competitive in non-tested shows?

  21. Kumar

    Hello again.
    I am back to the lifting game after 15 years. I am trying your version of starting strength.
    I am confused as to what weight must I start for the different lifts; squat, overhead press, bench press, dumbell rows, deadlifts.
    Please share with me any protocol that I can use to determine the starting weights.
    Thanks in anticipation.

  22. joe santus

    As far as the behavior of free versus caged chickens…well…I owned at least two dozen layer (that is, egg-producing breeds) hens at any time for over fifteen years (for eggs for family consumption). My chickens were always kept in a large coop, never allowed to roam freely. They regularly produced eggs, sometimes an egg per hen every day. So, that tale about caged chickens needing free chickens around to inspire them to produce is false.
    However…there is one behavior of chickens that does seem significant, when chickens are compared to humans — the other chickens will attack and often peck to death a chicken which exhibits abnormal characteristics. That is, if a chicken fails to “fit in and be like the rest”, it is rejected by the brood.

  23. John

    One of the honest people in the strength/bodybuilding/fitness industry was Arthur Jones, in his writings he is very honest about the role of genetic potential in developing your physique and also did not promote any supplements as he thought they were a con job…he was a man that had a passion for the truth, very rare in this particular
    field and was more knowledgeable about how the human body actually functions than most, if not all exercise scientists!

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Oh, brother.

    2. joe santus

      LOL…well…I’m age 62 and have been bodybuilding for forty-five years. I began bodybuilding at age sixteen shortly after Jones published his Nautilus Bulletins #1 and #2 and had articles appear in the muscle magazines of that era (including Muscular Development, Iron Man, Muscle Magazine, and Muscle Training Illustrated).

      Yes, Jones was very knowledgeable relative to many in the fitness industry…He helped the average-gened, steroid-free guy (I was one) realize that the high volume training used by steroid-using, elite-gened guys was unproductive and even counterproductive for him for optimizing hypertrophy…And he rejected any need except actual diagnosed deficiency for supplements.

      However, Jones was also too quick to preach his conclusions and insist one method worked optimally for everyone (a conclusion which in later of his writings he admitted was incorrect due to genetic variations in fiber types among people, an admission which most who’d believed him earlier never read)…His theories (including the practicability of building machines and cams which accurately produced the variable resistance Jones conceptualized) were disputed by equally-knowledgeable strength and exercise experts…He promoted his Nautilus machines as superior to every other form of resistance exercise (some Nautilus machines work well but are not substantially better than other bodybuilding equipment for hypertrophy)…And he may not have been selling supplements but he damned well was marketeering his comparatively expensive Nautilus and Med-X machines.

  24. Kyle Michaud

    Back when I was consistent and lean, (Going to try to get back into it this weekend) My arms were up to 17″ at 5 ft 5. After my wife having a baby and starting a personal training business ive been slacking and gained some weight. I’m about 182 right now. Arms are still big but obviously not how I want them. I have always been natural. always will be. there is hope for everyone.

  25. John

    I cannot help notice the muscle heads, both on this forum and in the gym that remain clueless as to what the fundamentals of bodybuilding are… STOP reading the bodybuilding magazines ( aka supplement magazine + articles ) and START reading anything that Arthur Jones wrote, then read it again and again because it is going to take a while to reprogram your brain and delete all the junk you have been downloading into it
    THE KEY to effective weight resistance training is intensity NOT time!
    Look at the physiques of a sprinter compared to a marathon runner…if you have half a brain on active duty you will join a few dots
    Another vital factor in making progress is rest & recovery, something the volume heroes do not seem to have any awareness of,much less knowledge
    Your specific muscles and body as a whole require rest to recover just to then get back to the size & strength they were BEFORE your workout, additional time is then required for your muscles to over compensate ( grow ) to be slightly bigger & stronger than before your workout ( providing your training hard enough )
    If you are in the gym pumping away day after day, you are obviously not training hard enough, NEWSFLASH… bodybuilding is not an endurance sport!
    If you are one of these clowns who think you deserve a medal for living in the gym, it is a dunce hat you deserve for not doing research and adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 5

    1. TheFinisher

      Oh another HIT jedi, you lot get destroyed on forums.

      Ellington Darden through his own studies concluded 92% of people DO NOT use HIT.

      If it worked, everyone would be doing it. ‘NEWSFLASH’ – no one gets big using HIT/low volume training.

  26. John

    You are correct…Ellington Darden through his own studies concluded 92% of people DO NOT like the idea of training hard
    Another comment confirming your ignorance of productive training… Have you heard of Sergio Oliver, Casey Viator, Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates?( yes, on steroids…as were all of their competitors )
    If you believe the more you do is better than actually training hard, you would be going to the gym 7 days per week
    How many sets are you doing per body part?, per workout?
    According to how your thinking as a result of the junk your reading/watching, if you are doing 5 sets you would be bigger if you do 10 and bigger again if you do 20… just imagine how big you are going to be when you reach 100 sets!
    When and if you ever start actually training with enough intensity you will not be able to rush back to the gym for your regular pump session

    1. TheFinisher

      ‘Ignorance’ Oh the irony when you have ignored how everyone trains. again, how many naturals get big off HIT? how big are you? Actually, stupid question – you’re not big.

      Junk, you are calling every champion bodybuilder junk? Dorian Yates did more than one set, sorry to break it to you. He didn’t build his body using HIT, no one has.

      Since you HIT jedi’s like using the sprinter analogy (which is wrong) how many sprinters do one sprint and then piss off for 2 weeks? exactly.

      Intensity is what is keeping you out of the gym for so long, going to failure and frying your CNS.

      Your last comment is laughable, the 92% are busy getting results. Now back to reading ‘HARDGAINER’ by Stuart Mcrobert.

  27. John

    Results of research that will interest you…
    92% of people have a job ( Just Over Broke ) and therefor are not wealthy… Do you aspire to be just like them too?… It is 92% of people and surely 92% of people could not be going about this the wrong way…could they?
    You keep following whatever the majority are doing champ…You can’t go wrong!

  28. John

    92% of people are lazy
    92% of people are just over broke
    92% of people do not think for themselves
    92% of people refuse to leave their comfort zone
    92% of people
    92% of people who attend the gym are more concerned with pumping,posing and looking at their phones
    You are proud to be in the 92% club…congratulations Finisher!, you have finished using your brain

  29. John

    On a recent visit to the gym, I was waiting for a clown, similar to yourself I imagine, to finish using the leg extension machine, he had done 2 or 3 sets by the time I was ready to start, he proceeded to do another 7 sets for a total of 9 or 10 sets!
    The last set he did was the only one of any significant effort that would have any possibility of instigating any new muscle growth…the genuis eventually got off the leg extension to go and do the same thing on the leg press…he was still there as I was leaving the gym after another productive HIT workout
    He, like yourself, is another member of the 92% club, all helping convince each your right because your in the majority
    Intelligence has its limits… Stupidity on the other hand, knows no bounds

  30. John

    As for the comment re size, you are making another common mistake of the 92% ‘we must be right club’
    I could tell you I am 100kg of muscle with a 19inch bicep and have been training for 10 years, you might be impressed and think,’ wow, this guy knows how to train and get big!’… but then I tell you that I was 90kg of muscle with an 18inch bicep before I ever lifted any weights…you might not be so impressed
    If I told you I am 80kg with a 15inch bicep and have been training for 10 years, you might not be impressed and think, ‘ This guy doesn’t know how to train and get big!…but then I tell you I was 60kg with a 10inch bicep before I ever lifted any weights…you might be more impressed
    So that is a matter of genetics NOT effective productive training methodologies
    Your question is meaningless and do yourself a favour and take no notice or care about how big someone else is…it has absolutely no relevance to you!
    The only way to accurately chart your progress is comparing yourself with yourself, workout to workout, week to week, month to month, year to year
    Im doubting if you have ever trained in true HIT fashion for 1 year and then judge the results by comparing with yourself from 1 year previous
    I have previously trained in a high volume fashion for years and having actually experienced both, I will never go back to wasting my time and energy with volume training
    You seem to have a mental block with not going to the gym… ALL progress happens while you are NOT in the gym!!

    1. TheFinisher

      So the guy training his legs was doing hard work, good for him. I’m sure he was bigger than you.

      Yes you have 15 inch biceps like all the other low volume lazy ‘bodybuilders’ on here. Thanks for confirming what I already know.

      You wrote 4 comments, I must of upset you. You forgot to rebuttal my points though because you can’t like all typical HITters. Now back you go to ‘Dr Darden’s ‘ website where all the other small people congregate.

      You wouldn’t call me a ‘clown’ if you saw me in the street. stay small.

  31. John

    You think doing 10 sets of leg extensions or any other exercise for that matter, is ‘hard work’
    I would like to see a show pony pumper like you do a hard workout…as Arthur Jones said, ‘ If you like doing an exercise, chances are your doing it wrong’ ( Jones would have forgotten more about productive exercise than you will ever know ) and Im guessing that you, like the mental midget on the leg extension, enjoy doing rep after rep, set after set, day after day, wasting your own time and more importantly, anyone waiting to use the weights and/or the machine for one hard set to failure
    Remember what I said big boy about comparing yourself with anyone else you see in a gym or on the street…it is totally irrelevant to you…let that sink in…it is genetics and yours are different to everybody else on the planet
    You still don’t understand, despite me saying in the simplest possible terms, the bodybuilder in my previous scenario that has made substantially more progress is the smaller one, having gained 20kg as opposed to 10kg and adding 5inches to his bicep compared with 1inch
    Going by your comments where size is everything…you would do whatever the bigger guy told you
    Yes I would call you a clown in the street, in the gym or anywhere else I happened to see you…and hear you talking nonsense because you are afraid of doing a real workout…
    if you like endurance activities go and do them… unfortunately for you, productive natural bodybuilding is not one of them

    1. TheFinisher

      You still can’t rebuttal my points.

      Arthur Jones already stated after he sold Nautilus. that he was WRONG about ‘full intensity’ lol. All HIT advocates are con men.

      You are talking nonsense, bodybuilding is about results. If a bodybuilder using conventional volume training gains 5 inches to his biceps and a HITter only gains 1 inch in the same 10 year period, then the volume training was more productive. You are using genetics as an excuse for YOUR SHIT RESULTS.

      So you have admitted you are small, but tell me, who is clearly bigger than you that i’m a ‘pony pumper’ that is wrong. Even though my results are better than yours and the other skinny HITters who don’t even look like they lift.

      Here is the dumbest thing you have said – You have called volume training an ‘endurance activity’ yet all you HiTters look like swimmers lol the irony. Do not make yourself look anymore stupid by replying.

  32. John

    You don’t have any points worth rebutting
    You are a s l o w learner, most likely because your too busy trying to justify your weak as piss workouts… You might be bigger than me, I might be bigger than you…who cares, its meaningless because as I have already explained, the ONLY person you can compare yourself with is… YOU
    What part of this are you having trouble understanding?
    You might be able to explain, being such a big gainer and expert on volume training, what exactly is the benefit of doing 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160 sets as opposed to one set to failure?

  33. John

    I have read a lot more of what Arthur Jones wrote than you have and I have not read the full intensity comment anywhere…I recall him saying he did regret doing even less sets in his workout after he had reduced them by 50% and began making gains again… I hope your not resorting to making stuff up, where did you read that quote?
    Here is a FACT for you and all your time wasting volume friends
    More than 50 years ago a study by Dr Richard Berger ( 1962 ) claimed that 3 sets of 10reps were best to increase strength in the bench press…so 3 sets of 10 reps became the standard training recommendation
    However, when looking at the data published in the study it became obvious that the differance between one set and three sets were only marginal and STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT for almost all combinations of sets and repetitions!
    Single set training actually produced results comparable to 3 set training
    So instead of ” three sets of an exercise are best “, the results of Dr Richard Berger’s study would be more accurate if summed up, ” One set of an exercise produces results comparable to those of two or three set training ”
    Later Berger conducted more studies comparing single set and multiple set training, all of which showed NO SIGNIFICANT differences in results ( Source; High Intensity Training – How To Build Muscles In Minutes-Fast, Efficient, And Healthy by Dr Jurgen Giessing )

    1. TheFinisher

      Another 3 replies, getting desperate huh.

      You can’t rebuttal my points because you have no comeback. You are a waste of time, like all delusional HIT jedi’s.

      If it’s meaningless why are you bothering being here? You only care about your results, and because they’re shit, it doesn’t matter because ‘the only person you can compare yourself with is you’……..oh boy.

      Why do more than one set? Because it is not just ‘intensity’ that makes a muscle grow, it is also volume of training and the repetition of stress. That is why Viator, Coe and Oliva switched back to volume training, although HITters avoid acknowledging this.

      You are following a program that is/was designed to get people in and out of the gym in 30 minutes to sell a line of exercise machines. You fell for it, and now you are wasting your money on a ‘HIT coach’ who has an agenda.

      Now carry on fatiguing your nervous system and barely fatiguing your muscular system with one set. What do you not understand? your slow rep dogshit training is clearly making your brain slow too.

  34. John

    Taking the previous FACTS into account… I personally prefer to go to the gym and do a workout with one set of each exercise performed until another rep is not possible…unlike the volume crowd, Im there for one reason and one reason only
    I notice the other 92% of people similar to yourself that you used to justify wasting time in the gym, there doing set after set after set of the same exercise, socialising dummies looking at their smartphones, talking to other time wasters, looking at tv screens, lifting weights too heavy for them so they use momentum to make it easier but less productive… they are doing everything…except having a hard workout!
    Find yourself a HIT coach, man up and stop pumping & posing and start progressing…unless you are afraid of pushing yourself that hard
    You might even find the balls to start using your real name…anything is possible!

  35. John

    In your mind you reach the conclusion that 3 replies must mean desperation…interesting logic at work there… it might also mean that you have been brainwashed by muscle magazines that only exist to sell supplements, not worthwhile training protocols and Im sure your the type who keeps up with the latest ‘ bro science ‘ of the other 92%ers who skilfully dodge anything that involves hard and/or pain
    Who are you going to compare yourself with to gauge your progress?
    The smallest guy in the gym…so you can boost your fragile ego and consider entering the Mr Universe?
    Or…the biggest guy in the gym…so you can feel like a loser who is wasting all those hours in the gym every day/week/month and you rack your weight and go home and have a good cry?
    You might not be wearing big shoes, a red nose and riding a tiny bike…but you are a clown my friend

    1. TheFinisher

      You haven’t addressed or tried to ‘correct’ me on my points because you can’t. You’ve lost.

      Go and talk about your pathetic physique with the other 8% of small retards on HIT sites. http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=383431 just look at them LOL

      Brainwashed? yes you have, because Mentzer BUILT HIS BODY WITH HIGH VOLUME LOL now go do your lazy pointless one set you gullible fucking idiot.

      Now i’m off to do 32 painful sets for arms, almost at 19 inches now. You can’t take the pain of high volume so you do a piss poor one set. You’ll never be big.

      I am done, stop bothering me. Thick as shit.

    2. TheFinisher

      You haven’t addressed or ‘corrected’ me on any of my points because you can’t. You’ve lost.

      Now go and talk to the other 8% with pathetic physiques like yours on HIT sites, just look at them LOL http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=383431

      Brainwashed? yes you have because MENTZER BUILT HIS BODY WITH HIGH VOLUME TRAINING LOL you gullible fucking idiot.

      Now i’m off to do 32 painful sets for arms, real pain, real hard work. Almost 19 inches now. You do one set because you can’t take the pain of high volume, no effort, no bollocks. You’ll always be small.

      I am done with you, stop bothering me. Thick as shit.

    3. TheFinisher

      Avoiding my points again because you cannot win. You’ve lost.

      Now go and post on HIT sites with the other 8% who have pathetic physiques like yours.

      Yes you were brainwashed because MENTZER BUILT HIS BODY WITH HIGH VOLUME TRAINING LOL you gullible fucking idiot.

      Now I am off to do 32 painful sets for arms, real effort, real hard work. Almost 19 inches now. You do one set because you’re lazy, scared of the pain and putting in real effort. Pitiful.

      Now stop bothering me, I’ve wasted enough time on skinny HITters. Thick as shit.

  36. John

    32 sets?… Do 64 sets and you will be twice as BIG!!!
    You have trashed every bodybuilder that has used HIT to achieve their potential without one shred of evidence or mention of where your getting this information…it is because your making it up… do 5 minutes research and you will discover that Casey Viator was and still is the youngest winner of the Mr America title performing HIT under the coaching of Arthur Jones
    ( or in your little mind that didn’t happen either? )
    Mike Mentzer never reverted back to volume training, in fact he had his clients training less and gaining more as he realised how important adequate rest and recovery is…read his books and stop your verbal diarrhoea
    Mentzer was on the verge of quitting bodybuilding due to the long non productive volume training he was doing and then had the good fortune of meeting Viator who introduced him to Jones ( unlike you, Im not making stuff up and pretending its a fact )
    Have a look around, you mental midget and observe what 92% of people are doing with their lives…and your proud to be one of them!
    You are not just a clown, you are a coward who likes to take the easy options in life along with the other 92% of sheeple
    You belong in the circus, Cowardly Clown, where you will not be wasting anyones time in the gym waiting for you to pump & pose your way through a ‘ workout ‘
    Don’t forget to use far too much weight so that you use momentum to lift the weight instead of your muscles…that always impresses the other 92%ers!

  37. John

    I have been thinking Cowardly Clown ( this name is more appropriate ) it would be better if you do NOT read any books by Mike Mentzer as
    he was an intelligent individual and uses words that you would struggle with so you would also need to buy a dictionary ( a book that explains the meaning of words ) and being a 92%er I know you are not wealthy!
    How was your pump session? ( a shame the pump is only temporary, isn’t it )
    You go on and on about your ‘ 19inch biceps ‘ Cowardly Clown but no mention of your legs?
    You waste 95% of your time pumping up your biceps and skip legs like 90% of the other 92%ers don’t you!… I see them every gym visit, they are usually wearing long pants or long shorts to cover their under developed legs…but they love pumping those biceps!
    Guess why you 92%ers do that Cowardly Clown?… Yes YOU know all too well… because training legs is HARD ( the opposite of what you do )
    I realise this is a lot for you to comprehend in a short space of time Cowardly Clown but do you know why you can get out of bed and walk around all day, doing 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000,16000 steps without having to think about it?…
    Because its EASY… just like your ‘workouts’ where you can go on and on and on because its not much harder than your walk from the car into the gym…anything that is EASY you can do a lot of…anything that is HARD you cannot ( i am explaining the differance as simply as possible as you don’t seem to have any concept )
    I suppose ‘Finisher’ was a better choice than ‘Premature Ejaculator’ but please don’t forget to change to your new name, Cowardly Clown

    1. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

      I see you’re having a mental breakdown like your idol Meth head Mentzer.

      Why would i waste my money on any dogshit HIT books, I do not want to be small and brainwashed like you.


      ‘Premature ejaculator’ yet you can only last for one set, you dumb cunt.

      My quads are 27 inches, now shut the fuck up you skinny twink. Adios.

    2. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

      I see you’re having a mental breakdown like your idol Mentzer the Meth head.


      ‘Premature ejaculator’ yet you can only last one set, You really are thick as shit.

      My quads are 27 inches. Please stay small, Adios.

  38. John

    Seems you got a little excited Cowardly Clown, you only need to post a message once or do you like doing everything multiple times for no reason?
    Going by the drivel you have been saying with no referance to where you get all this nonsense from, Im more inclined to believe that your biceps AND quads are 19inches!
    How many steps did you do today?… How many sets did you do?
    You did lots of both didn’t you Cowardly Clown… Why?… Because they were both EASY
    Any moron like yourself can go to a gym and do rep after rep, set after set of the SAME exercise but anyone with half a brain on active duty has better things to with their time so they train hard, brief and infrequent having a basic understanding of human physiology and exercise science ( No, Cowardly Clown, that is not the same as bro science )
    I know when I do my single set to failure that I am giving 100% effort
    What do you give,+ 50% – 50%
    If more is better why do you stop at the magic number of 32 sets?
    Wouldn’t you be EVEN bigger if you did 33 sets…66 sets…132 sets…264 sets… According to your logic you would be too BIG to walk through the doors of the gym!… You could be the BIGGEST bodybuilder on the planet!!!
    As for being brainwashed Cowardly Clown, you will find the majority ( yes that means you 92%er ) are the brainwashed and the minority are thinking for themselves ( thinking for yourself can also be hard, so not what you like doing )

  39. John

    As for your premature ejaculation issue, no amount of sets is going to help that but there is medications, counselling etc that you and your boyfriend ( husband? ) can go to together

    1. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

      You are calling legends like Arnold, serge nubret, frank zane, ronnie coleman, jay cutler, dexter jackson, flex wheeler, steve reeves, reg park, lee haney etc etc all ‘morons’ LOL fucking logic. If one set was better why didn’t any of them do it? You are so dumb.

      HIT – a logical argument built on a false premise.

      Work that one out, then increase your volume. You might actually have some muscle then. Skinny twink.

  40. John

    Yes they are all ignorant of the most effective and efficient way of training also,.they all…eventually achieved success because of favourable genetics…Viator, Ray & Mike Mentzer, Sergio, Coe, Yates etc also achieved success due to favourable genetics…they just did it without having to have their mail redirected to the gym
    You can do all the volume you like, its your time and life to waste but it does not mean you are ever going to look like Arnold
    I can follow HIT to the letter but I am never going to look like Mentzer
    GENETICS!… You are competing with YOURSELF not anybody else!!
    Mike Mentzer did a comparison of Arnolds training preparing for the 1975 Olympia and Viators training for the Colorado experiment… the differance in time is ridiculous and Viators results clearly superior
    You are probably in the gym again Early Finisher doing set after needless set again but as I was thinking you do not seem to have any concept of HARD and EASY I am going to give you the definitions from a dictionary ( remember I previously told you about the book that explains what words mean ) so here we go…
    EASY; Free from bodily or mental pain, worry etc ( you won’t have any doing set after mindless set ) evenly divided ( your sets always need to be an even number ) in comfortable fashion to proceed gently ( we have already established how 92%ers do not like anything that makes them feel uncomfortable )
    This describes what you are doing so now lets move on…
    HARD; Firm, unyielding to touch,solid ( muscle as a result of HIT ) difficult to bear or do, heavy strenous ( why 92%ers are not doing it )
    Read the two definitions of what is hard and what is easy and then read them as many times as you need, the objective is for you to understand that anything you can do a lot of is easy ( i.e. walking and your 32 sets ) and something you can only do a little of because its hard ( sprinting and my one set to failure per exercise )

  41. John

    A funny story ( unlike yours, this is actually true ) about Arnold was the time he went to De Land Florida Nautilus to be trained by Arthur Jones and experience the machines… He literally crawled out of the gym not having yet even finished his workout ( the first real one he had ever done ) and then proceeded to lose his lunch all over the grass!
    He later stated, ” I could not workout like that everyday, it would kill me! ‘
    Big Arnie by this statement proves his ignorance of effective training… You DO NOT do it every day… He is a genius obviously
    As for being the best bodybuilder of all time… take a look at the competition he was against to win all of his titles… One of his Universe or Olympia titles was due to him being the only competitor…talk about competing with yourself…
    Then came 1980 where he DID have quality competition… Anyone that thinks that Olympia ( and the following 1981 Olympia ‘ won ‘ by Franco ) was not a set up is not just a half wit but a full blown idiot as blind Freddy could see Arnold was not the best bodybuilder on stage, in fact he was fortunate to be in the final pose-down!
    This is where his close friendship with promoter Paul Graham ( a convicted criminal ) had its rewards… The movie Conan The Barbarian needed publicity too…
    Are you aware Cowardly Clown that a television network flew an entire crew from America to Australia to cover the entire event…when Arnold was announced the winner, his acceptance speech could hardly be heard because of the booing!
    The people who witnessed this ‘ competition ‘ live could clearly see Arnold was NOT the best bodybuilder on stage and was NOT deserving of the title
    What an insult to those bodybuilders who had dedicated the prior 12 months to training and preparing for this farce to take place
    Ben & Joe Weider considered Arnold like a son…he was not ever not going to be handed that title… Arnold himself knows that it was a hollow ‘ victory ‘
    He is a liar and a cheat

  42. John

    The event was NEVER BROADCAST due to the obvious corruption involved in the result
    ( unlike you, Im not making stuff up, check the facts yourself )
    Arnold 1980 and his side kick Franco 1981 because of their own selfish egos gave bodybuilding credability a good kick in the gonads

    1. TheFinisher

      Zzzzz…..More HIT DOGMA. Did you forget the ‘stories’ of Mentzer being caught doing HIGH volume and saying “well, only the last set counts” LOL

      Sprinters – they don’t do one sprint, they do multiple sprints per session

      Genetics – poor genetics requires more work, NOT less.

      Failure – training to failure is not required for maximum muscle growth, multiple hard sets are required.

      You do your thing and I will carry on doing mine, my results speak for themselves. Cheers.

  43. John

    HIT DOGMA… I don’t think so
    1981 Olympia, Franco wins… Arnold is the promoter… Not dogma… FACTS
    Just a coincidence… Nothing to worry about
    The Kings of volume training having to resort to cheating to win a contest v Mentzer…
    they were never going to let Mentzer win a ‘ contest ‘ that the golden boy was also in and have young bodybuilders following HIT instead of the bullshit they had been preaching for decades
    As for your results, what do you have to compare?
    Unlike yourself, I have trained using volume training as recommended through mostly Weider muscle magazines for years… YEARS
    Then reading Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones I have been performing HIT for years
    I have results from my real life experience of these opposing systems… You have experienced one and trash talk the other… BIG difference!
    I can assure you that I will NEVER return to those types of boring unproductive time consuming workouts
    Time is our most valuable asset in life as it the one thing that we do not get back… make sure your not wasting it and pumping your life away!

    1. Glove

      What´s your age, John?
      From your posts I get the feeling that you trained at those days when Mentzer got popular.
      Is that right?

  44. John

    Im 54 years young Glove and in the best shape of my life…thanks to adhering to the principles of HIT

    1. Glove

      54 years YOUNG sounds good!
      I´am 60 now. One day I feel young next day I feel older. But a little bit only 😉

      I remember I saw Mentzer on a title of the Weider magazine “Sportreveue” for the first time. As far as I remember it was the time I trained at home. It was 1976 I guess. I started with regular training 1974, 1975.

      End of 1977 I became a member of a commercial gym.
      The gym was that what we would call hardcore today. It was before the fitness boom. A few ladies, some track and field athletes, some boxers. Mainly BBler, some bigs names. Mr. Germany and Mr. Universe contestants. And some guys I would call “Lifters”. Powerlifting would be too much.
      Many of the newbys continued to trust in the typical Weider programs. Some of them never changed, never grew.
      The elder and successful ones wasn´t attracted very much by Mentzers theories. Mostly for one reason: their off season program was not that far from that what Mentzer did. Heavy compounds, very limited number of sets. Not very different from that what the lifters did. A very simple rule: if you want to get bigger you have to get stronger.
      All the big guys were strong.
      The only light weights I saw in this gym was handled by ladies. Weider newbys. And contestants 2 weeks before a show who were more dead as alive from their crazy diets.
      In the discussions about “volume” or HIT in the 70ties people forget to mention that Arnold deadlifted 310kg at the age of 17 or 18, Franco was a powerlifting champion and strongmen and Sergio Cuban weightlifting champion.

      All these lifters had a strength background. Even Zane said: of cause you have to increase weights. Or get a get a bigger intensity by using other tricks. And surely their are limits. Limits everywhere. Limits by your genes. By your bones an tendons. By the amounts of food you can eat. Drugs you can take. And surely the age.
      Otherwise everybody never would stop to grow. Everybody stops to grow.

  45. John

    Yes and when I say that Im in the best shape of my life, I am on par with the other time I have been at best, which is 9 years ago, so Im happy with my physical condition at moment
    Well done to you for being interested and still training, it is vital to give your body a reason to keep functioning at its optimal
    I remember saying, in one of his books, that he always found that he would get stronger before gaining any size… Always
    It is difficult to imagine it happening other way around isn’t it… Getting weaker before gaining any size!… Or even maintaining strength levels and gaining any size
    On the subject of the strength/size relationship, I re read this topic in Body By Science and also The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer and it gave me cause to give this subject more consideration, I was and had been up to that point being training once per week with a whole body workout consisting of 8 – 10 sets
    I am now training once every two weeks ( 3 workouts in 6 weeks ) and I have not lost any muscle or noticed any negative… What I have noticed is an increase in strength, my last workout consisted of 8 exercises/sets and there was improvement on weights and/or reps on 6 of the 8 sets…with my experience and time I have been training, that is significant!
    The amount of time it actually takes to first recover and then the time to over compensate has, I believe, been vastly under estimated and the higher the intensity, the longer rest is required… I might do even better by training once every 3 weeks, this will be the next phase of the self experiment
    You are correct, there are many variables involved in this activity and no two people are going to respond exactly the same to the same stimulus… Exercise tolerance is just one aspect where people can vary widely…and then yes, lifestyle, employment, general health,foods, drinks, drugs, supplements, genetics and so on and so on…
    Yes everybody has their genetic limits and if you cover all the basic principles of training and nutrition you will reach a point where you have fulfilled your potential…we are just not sure exactly what it is!
    You are correct again, many came from a powerlifting background, including Tom Platz, and if you look at photos/videos of Platz, Mentzer, Arnold and Viator who won the Mr America contest at just 19 years of age… They ALL were born with superior genetics for bodybuilding… Mentzers father had either huge forearms and/or calves, and had never lifted any weights in his life
    This is what I was trying to explain to Early Finisher… Like they say, you can’t put brains in a statue…

    1. Glove

      So you started to lift with 45 , right?
      Yes, the improvement you describe is defintely significant.
      Do you train your whole body HIT-like? In a single workout it´s very challenging I guess.
      I never tried something like this. Respect!!!
      How long do you do the routine every second week?
      It´s an intersting experiment to do it every third week.

      It´s clear that genetics are the main factor. It´s not only in lifting. But in any other sport too. I would say: in most parts of life. But it´s so clear that people not even think about it.

      The muscle industry plays down this point because they want to make one believe that everybody can make it. To tell the people that their ability to gain muscles strongly depends on their genes is not good for their business. It´s better to tell them that more or less everybody could win a trophy.
      Nowadays the youngsters seem to be more attracted by the fake natties. Not that much by the BB champions.

      Their tactics get more and more sophisticated.
      It´s a pity. Natural BB is absolutely worth to do if the expectant attitude is realistic.

  46. John

    I have been watching The Tom Platz Tape on youtube before going to the gym as it is very motivational, a good insight into the kind of mentality required if you are serious about making progress, not turning up and just expecting it to happen, as I see so many doing
    He emphasises the importance of the mind – muscle connection…something not possible for all the dummies in the gym now who are connected to their smartphones NOT their muscles!

    1. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

      Tom platz used high volume with sets to failure, I guess he’s a ‘moron’ too!

      Maybe you should go on youtube and see what Franco had to say about the fraud Mentzer, he trained for HOURS with him, as Franco said, he did MORE than what he spouted out.

      Or maybe you should go and comment on Ric Drasin’s channel who did HIGH volume with Arnold, go and call him a ‘moron’ too!

      But you won’t because you’re a ‘cowardly clown’.

  47. John

    Do you learn anything from history?… 1980 & 1981… Arnold & Franco are both liars and cheats so bother taking anything either of them say seriously… Arnold was also a politician… THINK about it!
    Mike Mentzer has described Franco as a mental midget so he never trained with him… are you making more things up in the little time you have between endurance events?

    1. TheFinisher of Skinny HITters

      History – yes, every champion trained with volume, There were ZERO HIT champs.

      Why did Tom Platz do more than one set? “THINK about it”

      Go on, go and tell Ric Drasin that he did ‘endurance events’ even though you look like a swimmer. At least he’s telling us the truth about they trained, go and call him a ‘moron’.

      He’s in his 70’s and still bigger than you, must be ‘genetics’. Funny how my genetics got better when I did more volume LOL

  48. John

    If it makes you feel better by believing that Casey Viator, Mike & Ray Mentzer, Dorian Yates etc never won any of their many titles by building their physiques using HIT I am happy for you to live in your fantasy land
    I have heard Tom Platz say on youtube that he did leg training once every two weeks, but the intensity of that training was insane
    Did you notice that the key word he used was INTENSITY ( that is why he only needed to do it once every two weeks, unlike your walking and ‘workouts’ )
    He didn’t say that he trained his legs as often as possible, for as long as possible or using as many sets as possible, he didn’t mention time or sets because he knows the key to triggering the growth mechanism in the body is… INTENSITY
    I have never heard of this Ric Drasin you speak of… Im assuming he is another one of the 92% who like to avoid anything hard/difficult/uncomfortable… I don’t have time to correspond with all of you… dealing with one of you is more than enough
    The old line that you 92%ers love using re HIT being invented as a way to increase clients going through a workout is laughable and is a good indication of your lack of intelligence and any original thought of your own
    Jones, unlike the rest involved in the bodybuilding, supplements, magazine industry, liked to put truth above all else and was well known to be happy if someone could prove him wrong as it would mean he was one step closer to getting to the truth… He was rarely proven wrong
    He also insisted on any studies conducted be independently supervised and results analysed knowing in advance that they would be out to discredit his results…especially if those results were favourable to HIT
    Whilst-ever you remain hiding behind the majority… You remain the Cowardly Clown minus the big shoes, red nose and little bike

  49. John

    Are you talking about the host of Rics corner?
    If you are, you are even more fool than I already think you are!
    For a start, he is in terrible shape, he spends half the time talking about his various injuries, aches and pains he has in his body…as a result of his misunderstanding of High Intensity Low Impact training
    He is just another 92%er that has destroyed his ligaments, tendons, joints and muscles with high volume, high impact training over a long period of time… leaving him a damaged broken down old man
    And you want to use him as a shining light for high volume… you idiot!
    ( I am laughing, so thanks for that, laughing is always good )

    1. TheFinisher

      I am laughing too, especially when I watch Ric’s corner and that bald skinny cunt is there, he’s actually a HITter too.

      He wears oversized shirts to cover up his 15 inch arms, flat shoulders and bird chest. Why do you all look like marathon runners? Hmm….nope, that HIT shit clearly isn’t working.

  50. John

    You keep watching and listening to Ric talk about his broken down body,,, but hey, he has big arms and that is all that matters to you isn’t it
    You too will be a broken down old fool one day, still talking nonsense… just like Ric!

  51. John

    Unlike yourself Early Finisher, I do not waste my time watching/listening to Rics rantings and spending the majority of my life in a gym doing set after set of mind numbing unproductive exercise
    Rics knowledge of productive, effective bodybuilding would fit onto the back of a postage stamp
    Arthur Jones knowledge of productive, effective bodybuilding would fit a volume of encyclopaedias
    The fact you choose to spend time ‘learning’ from Ric says all I need to know about your intelligence or lack thereof
    You are the kind of person who would go to a restaurant that offers two meals, you only ever eat one and then spend your time trash talking the other that you have never experienced!
    Come back and talk after you have found enough courage to use HIT for 1 year so you have some real life experience and not just second hand bullshit

  52. John

    Your observations of the bodybuilding industry are insightful and I would think also very accurate Glove, especially in regards to genetics ( something both Jones & Mentzer were honest about )
    Making everyone who reads their magazines believe that by following bodybuilder x training routine/workout and taking xyz supplements, you too will look just like him!… its only a matter of time and your own mother will not be able to tell you apart!!
    I recall Mentzer was asked at one his seminars, ” Mike, what would I have to do to look like you?”… Mentzer replied, ” You would just need to have my parents ”
    As for your question, I first started using weights ( barbell, dumbells,benchpress & squat rack in my bedroom @ 16 years of age )
    Over the years I have had periods of time with consistent training and periods of time I have not touched a weight for various reason
    It was not until age 45 I started to put the principles of HIT into my workouts and stay consistent with this approach and this has enabled me to be in better shape than during even my 20s or 30s!
    My workouts consist of 8 – 10 exercises, the majority are compound, no warm up sets as Arthur Jones explained, your initial reps of a set serve the purpose of being warm up reps until you reach the last one or two, the last being the one that matters
    A workout usually lasts 35 – 45 minutes ( depending on the wait for some fool to do 10 sets of the same exercise )
    Weight resistance training is the #1 way to overall health & fitness as very well stated in Body by Science… If done the right way, which in my opinion is drug free, as much organic foods possible and pure water ( NOT the chemical concoction coming out of the tap! )
    Building a better looking body on the outside while your destroying your body on the inside is not worth taking any drugs for!!… It defeats the purpose… far more important things in life to make priority

  53. Glove

    Warm up. I forgot to ask you. In which rep range do you train?
    Yes it´s fantastic that HIT works in this proper way for you!
    Even today I often train the pyramid. Lower weight, more reps. Higher rep, less. A few sets per body part. That´s it.
    I tried sophisticated powerlifting programs. Like the Hatfield program. Things like that. After 12 weeks one tries a max rep. I remember that this circle was interrupted by a few business trips and I failed. Bad feeling.

    Circle or no circle. The question is: is the body ready for the next step?
    Over the years I learned that periodisation is important to keep my motivation. Today I do not work with programs anymore. I´am asking myself: for which type of training I´am ready today?
    It´s different: some people need the frame of a strict regime. Some not.

    Of cause I made faults. I never trusted in a lot of sets. I put my focus on getting stronger. That was good. But I chased PRs much too hard. Failed. Built up mental barriers. I put myself too much under pressure.

    1. TheFinisher

      A few sets per body part? What results were you expecting? DO MORE.

  54. John

    I train in the 8 – 12 rep range as this seems to be the tried & tested range for muscle growth… with the exception of legs, which due to their different muscle fibre profile have been proven, in general, to respond better to higher reps, so all upper body exercises are 8 – 12 and for legs I set the reps at 25, unlike completing the set when another rep is not possible, I will stop at 25 each time for the squat/hack squat as it can be unsafe to go to complete failure on this exercise anyway… I reach 25 reps and then increase the weight slightly each subsequent workout
    I keep the rep range 8 – 12 for leg extensions and standing calf raise, Mentzer said the calves get plenty of high volume – low intensity activity every day so during a workout, they need a heavy load to stimulate growth…as for leg extensions, no reason not to increase the rep range on them I suppose as this exercise is safe to do so
    Yes Glove, early on I was following the advice of what was printed in Weiders Muscle & Fitness, a typical workout being 10 – 12 exercises of 3 sets each performed 3 times per week in pyramid style, so somewhere in the range of 30 – 36 sets per workout,…90 – 108 sets per week!!!… In hindsight not too hard to know why I was feeling exhausted and not gaining any significant muscle!! ( although it did do a good job of keeping me lean )
    I would suggest that you start training HIT style as it is the most safe, being low impact on your tendons, ligaments and joints, whilst being most productive for your muscles and the condition of your muscles is vital to your overall health… AND you will not have the excuse that you don’t have time for it!

  55. John

    A good place to start is the Body by Science Big 5 workout, I highly recommend you get yourself a copy, and read so you have a grasp of why your doing it this way
    I tweaked the actual workout based on everything I have learned from Arthur Jones…..
    I always begin my workouts by training legs in the higher rep range, you can do 20 – 25 reps
    I also did the remaining four exercises in the 8 – 12 rep range
    Body by Science has you doing the leg press last in the workout, I always did it first
    Body by Science also goes by time per set instead of counting reps… I do not find this practical unless you have a personal trainer familar with this book/style ( you can set a timer for each set if you train alone and prefer to use the time method )… I find it simple and just as effective to go by reps until failure ( my interpretation of failure is when another full repetition cannot be completed despite 100% of your effort… always try to complete another rep, even if the weight only moves an inch or two…the set is then finished )
    So legs first and then the other four upper body exercises in the same order they are listed in the Body by Science workout
    I think this would be ideal for you Glove

  56. Glove

    The 25 reps is a very interesting way to train your legs. Me and my buddy did something similar. Take a weight you can use for estimated 18-20 reps. That’s not a real heavy weight. It’s around 60-70% of your max rep. First 10 are o.k. The next 5-8 reps come slower. After you have done them you know: you can do some more. One after one. You can’t breathe anymore but you can squeeze out more reps. After 28 reps or so you start to make rests of 30-45 seconds between the reps. And you carry on… it’s a horrible experience. Normally people vomit after this procedure. If you have done it in a “proper” way you workout is done. After this one set. Next day you can’t walk.
    It’s worth to try it. Better do it with 2 spotters. Is it useful to do it regularly? I have my doubts…
    What I want to say: intensity can be maximized anyway. After failure you start with the negatives. I tried that all. In a proper way done it works for a while. Dennis James for instance told he invented a new system ” time under tension”. He said he would have won the Olympia minimum twice if he had used it before.
    Who knows?
    If you really have these gains at the age of 54 go further! No doubt ! It’s a clear sign that you didn’t reach your genetic limit before. Take care you don’t get younger. As long as it works why not?

    I myself was to close to my natural limit at the age of 21 with 80-85kg and later on with 95 kg. I got a permabulker as Truthseeker describes it very proper. You get some stronger and of cause bulkier but you are loosing your leaness. And out of this problem nobody can help you. No Mentzer, no Arthur Jones.

    But I know that some natural athletes could hold their maximum strenght very long. What I heard from some top athletes: they are lowering their weights a bit because they have a better feeling for their muscles. They can get the same intensity with lower weights. From a certain level on the risk to injure goes up.

  57. John

    Yes the idea of training legs first in a workout was the idea of Perry Radar, I believe, some time ago now and big gains of overall muscular body weight have been achieved, it was known as the 20 Rep Squat Workout
    Jones recommended structuring your workouts so you exercise your body, largest muscles to smallest
    As for Dennis James he sounds confidant in the time under tension method but he would only win two Olympia titles if they wanted him to win two Olympia titles or in other words, if it suited them…bodybuilding contests are corrupt, this was proven a long time ago
    You are correct re heavy weights, they are not necessary, correct form and constant tension on the muscle until failure are far more important… Tom Platz says he never saw Arnold or any of the top bodybuilders of his time use any more than a 45 pound dumbell
    The lesser weight the less force going through your joints,tendons and ligaments… vital for pain free longevity!

  58. Glove

    All these BB shows are politics. Besides of corruption it’s often a matter of taste.
    As a non-american contestant it’s let’s say a little difficult to win a show in America.
    I think there was no German Olympia contestant who not blamed the jury to be underrated. James, Rühl, Rockel, Wolf a.s.o.
    It’s clear. You need the right connections. Does it make sense for David Hoffmann to start at the Olympia? Or for Budesheim?
    Competitive BB is loosing interest more and more…

  59. John

    Yes there is corruption and it is a subjective event, Frank Zane said that he did not become a bodybuilding judge as he knew he would be looking for and rewarding the physique that was most similar to his physique!…at least he was honest…all this bias and personal preferances come into play
    As for professional bodybuilding as it stands today, I have no interest in the Mr Olympia, Mr Universe or any other Mr Title… I,like 99.99% of the planets population have no interest in watching the chemical/drug freaks flexing their grotesque physiques and zero desire to look like them!
    I stopped buying muscle magazines a long time ago and would not have a clue who is winning the Olympia title…these magazines are full of contradictory advise re effective training and their advertisments for supplements to make you look like bodybuilder xy or z never mention the cocktail of chemicals they are also taking…the true reason for their unnatural development… NOT the protein shake!!
    Unfortunately size has won over symmetry and turned it into a freak show the general public do not relate to

  60. Glove

    100 % agreement.
    Recently I saw an interview with Zane. Modest, calm, educated. He never fit into this circus. A type of guy you talk about BB 10 minutes and other more interesting matters an hour.
    Yates is an intelligent man too. Sombaty and Jean Pierre Fuchs gave interesting interviews.
    They all more or less look the same today. All the gear pump up their bodies and take away the individual look. BB was driven in a dead end street and will not come out there.
    I think I bought my last magazine in 1981

  61. John

    Indeed Im sure people could and did pass Zane in the street and not know that he was a bodybuilder, he contested at a weight of 85kg during his Mr Olympias…and like all bodybuilders Im sure he desired to be bigger but he was restricted, size wise, by genetics, the same as everybody else
    Now genetic limitations can be limited by heavy drug use… producing the overblown bodies now competing, hence the unnatural look
    A shame, because bodybuilding could have been a great advertisement for strength and health if done the right way

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