Why The Muscle Industry Does Not Want You To Know How Big You Can Get Naturally

| January 14, 2018 by Truth Seeker |

source: https://pixabay.com/en/admission-coupon-admit-buy-2974645/

The stores are full. The oil pumps are dancing to the beat of big corporations. The factories are constantly producing smoke, the sound of clashing metal and silence as sad as the tears of a dying soul.

When you stand in front of the mall, the doors open like robots and yet their motion seemingly carries affection cutting through the air. The sellers say “Hello, sir. How can I help you?”.

The router is blinking. The smartphone is singing. The doctor says “Does it heart here?”. Police sirens are filling the atmosphere. Big Macs are always available and taste the same wherever you go.

The airports are importing and exporting people. The planes are infesting the sky. The taxis are carrying the busy citizens through the arteries of the city…


Why do we get with the program?

There are three main pillars that ensure the functioning of the modern mechanism known as the merchant system.





If you don’t follow the rules, you’re excluded from the society. You become a part that simply has no place in the mechanism. Your only role is to serve as an example what not to do. Humans start to resent you and disregard your opinion completely. Once you stop playing your role, people quickly walk away from your life while labeling you as crazy. Even those the closest to you will not make an exception. Eventually, you will lose your status, friendships and toys. This will lead to a devastating loneliness that almost no human heart can handle forever.


The school system teaches about mitochondria and ancient history all day but gladly omits knowledge that doesn’t suit the agenda. As I told you in A Hater’s Synthesis, this results in smart idiots who can do incredibly complex tasks in a controlled environment but lack basic knowledge of the psyche and the world around them. Smart idiots are incapable of producing great change, for they don’t possess the ability to see through the mainstream concepts that have been enslaving the world.


Let me tell you the story about the loose chickens.

A group of curious tourists went to see a chicken farm. Most of the chickens were in small cages, but there were also a few running free.

“Did those chickens escape,” asked the tourists.

“No, they didn’t. We set them free on purpose. If all chickens are caged, they don’t produce eggs. But when some are free, they all do it,” replied the owner.

(I don’t know who is the original author of this story. I read it in an online comment a long time ago.)

What if I tell you that the system relies on the same principle to produce hope?

The famous musicians, sports players, actors, singers, entertainers, celebrities and other forms of modern heroes play the role of loose chickens. If those people didn’t exist, most individuals would be reluctant to do their job (produce eggs), for they will see no point in doing so.

Consequently, the grand architects invest a great amount of time and money (ours) in the creation and development of entertaining activities which act as dopamine factories working on the treadmill principle – you run, but everything happens in a sterile environment; you burn calories and your legs work as intended, but you don’t go anywhere [the masturbation effect].

For the same reasons, the system organizes reality shows for singers and other forms of entertainers. How come they never make a reality show for office cleaners or workers in an Apple factory? It is simply depressing. That’s why. The system does not benefit from saddening its servants.

So, what are we hoping to achieve?

We are hoping to become free/loose chickens ourselves so that we can enjoy the benefits of the system one day. Ironically, if we were all loose chickens, the system would fall apart because there wouldn’t be workers to engineer and produce the material pleasures and services that we are fighting for.

Ultimately, the three pillars (fear, ignorance, hope) result in the essential ingredient for control – obedience. If people aren’t obedient, the system would simply collapse for better or worse. This is why the generals put so much effort into elaborating strategies designed to keep humans subservient.

Anyone who criticizes the system is labeled as a bitter hater jealous of others’ successes. Most humans are too lost and brainwashed to realize what’s happening. They wouldn’t let themselves see the truth, for their whole lives would acquire the characteristics of a real hallucination. This is why they put even more faith in the system and keep pushing the rock.

Another common characteristic that many humans share is the false belief that the system is here to serve you. People are legitimately convinced that what we have right now is evolution’s best result. The system, however, is not here to serve you. It’s here to use you and urinate on your ashes. It does not have your best interest in mind. You are a tool.

The muscle cartel operates on the exact same principle.

Step 1. Install fear and doubt

At this stage, the system takes a sample of muscle apprentices willing to do almost anything in the hope to forge thicker muscle fibers and starts to install fear and hesitation in their heads. The muscle cartel wants you to believe that unless you follow the rules outlined by the mainstream establishment you will never get what you want. This is the reason for the post-workout panic, protein OCD and the never-ending analysis inhabiting the craniums of the muscle constructors.

“If something is not working, it’s your fault,” says the industry.

You don’t take the right amount of protein. You don’t do the right exercises. You don’t follow the right progression. You don’t go all the way. You don’t push hard enough. You don’t consume enough calories. You don’t scream properly during your sets. You use straps when you aren’t supposed to strap. You didn’t take the right supplements. You took the right supplements, but it wasn’t at the right time. You didn’t drink enough water. You drank too much water.

It’s always you. It’s never the system. The system is perfect. After all, it works for so many people. Just look in the magazines. They are full of big guys doing it right. What is your excuse?

Step 2. Spread ignorance and focus on “bureaucracy”

I am almost sorry to inform you that most of the training related info is focusing on variables that don’t matter as much you want them to. Everybody is talking about reps, sets and proper protein intake, but those values don’t make that much of a difference.

Every day the mainstream muscle media is producing article after article. What are they talking about? Haven’t they already said everything they had to say? They are essentially nitpicking. Bench with a wider grip. Bench with a closer grip. Do hamstring curls while lifting your butt a little bit to activate the glutes properly…etc. As if this is the reason why naturals are not as big as the pros. As if the pros are doing everything right.

This is what I call – muscle bureaucracy. Muscle scholars are spamming the world with recycled info every day while knowing very well that their adjustments make zero difference when it comes to real growth. Imagine Ronnie Coleman overthinking his grip on lat pull-downs or something like that. It’s funny to even say it.

Step 3. Install and preserve hope

Hope is an essential ingredient. Without it, the humanoids get depressed and become extremely unproductive. When you lose your motivation to continue the fight, you simply stop. Would you hunt if you know that you will never eat your prey? It’s counter-intuitive.

This led to the creation of the so-called muscle heroes. Those would be the men in the magazines, movies and YouTube clips.

People are told that they can have an extraterrestrial musculature too if they play by the rules (made by the system). Naturally, the dreamers start to derive inspiration from the promoted success stories and become obedient (doing the right sets at the right time and drinking the right kind of whey at the right moments).

Nonetheless, installing hope isn’t enough. Humans are not that stupid. We have strong instincts and an ability to think critically that activates occasionally. Therefore, extra measures are required to preserve the mechanism.

Those who wake up and begin asking questions are silenced quickly if not by the system directly by the large number of fanboys and beginners who still have faith in the doctrine. Since every year a generation of boys turns 17 and starts writing “how to build big muscles” in Google, it all works just fine. Nothing has changed since Weider and Hoffman’s time – the marketing is the same – the only difference is the delivery method (mainly social media, forums, sites and YouTube).

Killing Hope

If the natural lifters know that they will never come even remotely close to the size and strength of their heroes, they would lose their motivation to train. What is the point of learning from a millionaire if you are not going to earn good money yourself? What is the point of learning pick-up if you are never going to unite with nice girls in your life? What is the point of working if you will never get paid? What is the point of going to the movies if the screens aren’t working?


This is why the industry does its best to conceal the real natural limitations – those would destroy a lot of false hope in the hearts of the young muscle ninjas who listen with open mouths when steroid gurus are presenting growth strategies on YouTube.

As a result, most attempts to expose the actual natural capacities are ridiculed by the mainstream industries, its aware pawns and the brainwashed kids who simply do not know any better and want to believe in miracles.

Strategies Used By The System To Preserve Hope

Digging For Old-Timers

Obviously, it’s extremely hard for the industry to hide the fact that modern bodybuilders inject. Weighing 220lbs at 5 ft 7 while carrying 8% body fat makes even the most clueless lifters skeptic. To fix this problem, the muscle cartel goes back in time (think the Arnold era and before) to dig for old-timers who were huge when steroids were supposedly present only in the wet dreams of scientists with broken hearts.

This method would work if it wasn’t for the fact that steroids have been in use since the 40s. Many of the old-timers chosen as poster boys for steroid-free physiques were actually taking early forms of testosterone.

Promoting Male Physique Models

According to many, the so-called physique shows save the day by presenting an attractive physique that does not require the import of performance-enhancing drugs. Of course, this is nonsense. Most male physique models carry as much mass as a bodybuilder from the 70s. Unless you have a ridiculous frame naturally, you will be hard-pressed to stand out next to modern male models. Also, let’s not forget that King Tren is still King.

Advancement in Training and Nutrition

What changed? What is the difference between today and yesterday?

Powders, books and machines.

Back in the day, there were fewer supplements and the quality was worse. In addition, the lifters didn’t have access to as many machines and books on programming. Guess, what? This is not enough to induce growth beyond the natural human abilities.

Supplements? As effective as food at best.

Training equipment? The compounds are still the best. You ain’t getting a 55-inch chest thanks to a chest pressing machine.

Programming books? You mean overthinking books?

Once again – naturals are not smaller than the roid bros because they don’t do the right number of sets and reps. Sure, good programming can make you stronger, but it does not have the capacity to break the natty chains either.


“He has better genetics,” screams the industry when angry lifters start asking questions.

As expected, this is just another attempt of the system to hide its inability to deliver the promised results. When you are printing magazines showcasing 21-inch arms while most naturals have a hard time reaching 15 inches in a lean condition, genetics could be an effective way to save face.

Yes, some people have insane genetics. It’s true. But no one has the genes required to build the mass seen on the pro stage. Moreover, many owe their “amazing genetics” to low body fat levels and regular drug intake.

P.S. If you want to know more about the natural muscular potential, you can check out the book:

Potential – How Big Can You Get Naturally

The book that the industry does not want you to read.


  1. MB

    Good article.
    I have a question that maybe is a little bit of topic:
    What are ‘testosterone boosters’. I believe I’ve seen it once in an supplement advert.
    @truthseeker: I’ve sended an email, but I didn’t had feedback for a while.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Testosterone boosters are useless for muscle building purposes.

      In general, if you are going to boost your test naturally, do it with food.

        1. Ok

          There is no such thing as test boosters.
          You can not manipulate an hormon with over the counter bullshit product and expect to trigger growth.

  2. Joos Liftsteen

    But Truthseeker, I just spent a year lifting and got big and buff so fast.

    My meteoric rise to muscle stardom just started and I’m rocketing at near light speed. Youtube won’t know what to do with me.

    Don’t tell me I’m not going to get huge after I run a hypertrophy program. I’ve been training for strength because they told me a natural could only get bigger by getting stronger.

    But now I’ll be training special for hypertrophy and I’m gonna pack on mass just like my Yootube heroes!

    I’ll show them and join them!
    Hypertrophy here we come!

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Go for it, brah.
      The sky is the limit.
      It’s all about how bad you want it.
      I see that you want it pretty bad.
      That’s good, brah.

  3. truthhunter

    you should do an article on ‘The golden one’, was formerly known as latsbrah , he claims to be natural but i doubt it since the guy is weighing 95-100kg and is fairly lean like 12% bodyfat ish

  4. Kumar

    Hello there.
    I have been reading your articles with great interest. You have a great talent in using words. I have 2 questions: 1. Are your writings just a hobby or are they really your point of view. & 2. I want to know your view on nutrition; equally as important as exercise I think.

  5. MB

    Who are the best real natural athletes (men/woman)?
    I would like to see some pictures to have an idea. Especially what I can expect with low bodyfat like 10%

    1. Bob

      I’ve seen old pictures of Eugene Sandow and others from that time period….just go to google images. They’re natural by default of the time period and outstanding physiques. I’m guessing that’s about as far as human muscle hypertrophy can go. I’d be happy with that. Some folks from the 40’s to the 60’s don’t pass the sight test.

  6. twp

    I am from Bulgaria where steroids are legal(I think in every Balkan country they are) and no one gives a fuck if you take them, because of that a lot of guys don’t hide it at all. Pretty common word is “I will make a cycle or two for the summer when I go to the beach”. Here having a big arms is a big deal and it is not rare to see a 17 yo kids having an 18 inch arms with weak back and chest development and no legs at all. Anyway I would say in Eastern Europe countries people are redpilled about the steroid usage vs the west where people have on idea what is going on in fitness industry.

          1. MB

            I do have to add that from some pictures and video’s I have got a little bit doubts. But if you train hard and eat right a lot is possible.

          2. MB

            Also people who are not very tall can more easily build muscle and give often the impression to look more muscular. And creatine helps too. So why would it not be possible?

          3. MB

            I just read the creatine article and perhaps I was wrong about that. This gives me more doubts.
            @Truth seeker Can you give your opinion? Because I really don’t know anymore what is achievable naturally. I always was 100% convinced she was natural.

        1. Glove

          This lady is far away from a case we could discuss: natty or not? If you want to get this look naturally forget about it.
          My advice is to leave the internet for a while and go out in the “real world” of training. Visit the gyms and discuss with the ladies who are really performing powerlifting or BB. Compare their appearance with the ladies who are just shaping up. Together with your own experiences in training and dieting (better don´t diet and eat healthy natural food) after a while you get a clear picture of what is possible and what is not.

          1. MB

            Thank you for your feedback 🙂
            If that’s true I have to re-think things. Perhaps I had a wrong image. I’m pretty naive in this kinds of stuff.
            I asumed she was natural because in her best off season shape she had about 15 inch biceps (for 5 foot 3) and during contest they became smaller to 12,5 inch. That seemed normal to me according what I read here about naturals getting smaller when they are lean.
            The only thing what made me doubt was that in some pictures she had superlow fat percentage while still having muscle size and that confuses me.
            I have seen her and she doesn’t look like an IFBB pro.
            I’m not sure what to conclude now. Do you really think she did a few cycles with steroids?

          2. MB

            @Glove What made you think this is not achievable naturally? Woman can build a six-pack too right? And they can lower their fat percentage too. If you see what Eugen Sandow achieved then woman must be capable to get an awesome look naturally. Or am I wrong?

          3. Glove

            Do you know the name Lisa Lyon? First IFBB world champion in 1979. Was she clean? I don´t know. Please compare her with the muscle ladies from today.
            As soon as women have clearly visible muscles it´s the first hint on steroids. If they are under a certain limit of bodyfat and you can see shredded muscles and these ladies have remarkable muscle mass you can be sure that they take steroids.
            If they have a normal bodyfat percentage in combination with bulky muscles its for sure a result of drugs. As soon they look more manly (face and everything) than ladylike you can be sure that they ABUSE steroids.
            If shredded natural men have no remarkable muscle mass how can women have???
            I understand that today a number of women want to have muscles like male bbler or models. Sorry, absolutely impossible for ladies with a normal hormonstatus. Sportive figures: yes! Manly muscles: NO!

            There are some Youtube videos you can see the difference.

          4. MB

            @Glove This is very interesting to know. But if that’s true, then it means that women can’t really have shredded abs. Or biceps that look big and with much definition at the same time.
            So if a woman is natural and very gifted and reach her maximum limits she would look like a fitness woman, but not like someone where people would say: ‘look at her arms, it must be a bodybuilder’
            Sorry if I am hard to convince, but with this new information my believe system gets a serious dent.

          5. joe santus

            MB — even IF it is true she can get that physique “because of her genetics and discipline”, it’d then be equally true that her genetics are extremely anomalous among women, and would be true that, NO, 99% of women can never get that shredded-with-clearly-defined-abs look unless they use steroids and other PEDs, no matter how disciplined they are.

  7. Matt

    About your point on New Equipment Hype, Dan John is big on just focusing on movements : Hip Hinge, Squat, Press, Pull, and Carry. It does not matter if your doing those movements with barbell, bodyweight, dumbells, Kettlebells, heavy stones, bands, cables, weight vests, wheel barrels (with out the wheel), sandbags, rings, a backpack with books, even those weight machines, etc… Our bodies can not tell as much as we think as for as far as resistance training, and even more if we can not do more than 10 reps of the movement before failure. Granted Barbells is the most used and efficient way to strengthen the body and build muscle. It is not the only means to do the above mentioned and get results.

    On a side note, their are very few articles on Planche Push ups, Human flags, Iron Cross, Pistol Squats, and Muscle ups, because they are much harder to master than deadlift, squat and benchpress, but can build muscle and strength just as well as the beloved barbell. I am sure intimidated by those movements for sure, but they can be effective for those who put the time and effort into it.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Those gymnastic movements cannot be achieved by tall people. For the vast majority of the population, the good old barbell + the classic bodyweight exercises (chin-up + dips) are better.

      1. Matt

        I agree with your point that barbell and/or bodyweight are the way to go off of personal experience. I don’t personally do the gymnastic movements and really basing this on articles I have read. I have personally seen alot of benefit from chins and pushups which are lighter forms of gymnastic . I was trying to say you can do the basic movements (Hip hinge, Squat, Press, Pull, Carry) with other means of resistance but they are in most cases not as effective as the standards but could be depending some factors.

    2. Fatman

      “Granted Barbells is the most used and efficient way to strengthen the body and build muscle.”

      They’re not, though. When you do compound lifts, your body will adapt and rely more on the muscles that are already dominant. So your big muscles get bigger and the underdeveloped ones stay underdeveloped. If you’re into heavy lifting, this can even be detrimental, i.e. lead to injury. Isolation exercises have their place.

      If you look at e.g. the world’s top squatters (in any not-obese weight category), most of them have unimpressive leg development, especially quads. Even in steroid users, compound exercises do not always lead to muscle growth. There’s a reason why bodybuilders shun barbell work, for the most part.

      Barbell exercises have one big advantage over advanced bodyweight moves, which is progressive overload. Very few people progress to a planche pushup or an iron cross, almost no one who is not tiny and light.

  8. guest1

    This is true for most people, however, in my experience, a relatively significant minority of people (3-5%) do have excellent genetics. However, a lot of them just never reach their genetic limit because they already have decent physiques and have no desire to go all the way.

  9. Stephen

    Truthseeker, I appreciate what you do, and beleive the entire fitness injury is largely just snake oil.
    I do believe you massively under estimate what can be achieved naturally though. It is more than possible for a natural to be benching 3 plates, squatting 4 and deadlifting 5. Obvisouly this would take a few years, depending on genetics, training, diet, disipline etc but its more than achievable.
    The squat and deadlift I would say could go as high as 5 and 6 plates respectively with out gear (I have seen it my self, though have not personally achieved it).
    Anything over 3.5 plates on the bench would be difficult, especually at a low body fat with out gear, but again is possible.
    Strength and size arent the same thing though. I grew much more in the chest benching 90lb dumbells than I did benching a 275lb barbell.
    Anyway, you sell natural bodybuilding short.

    1. twp

      And I think you underestimated the time needed to get really strong. Few Years ? I think majority of men would never hit these numbers even if they train properly. If you give some young(preferable mid puberty) gifted guys 5 years they will reach these numbers, but I think no more than ~20% of guys are capable to do this.

      Roids hugely distorted what is possible naturally.

      1. Truth Seeker Post author

        You can get some of those lifts naturally if you are built for the lift and train for years. Otherwise, the only option would be to acquire master obesity.

        For instance, I know 100% that I will never bench 3 plates naturally unless I get as fat as a sumo wrestler. I am just not built for that lift.

        Getting to a 5 plate deadlift is the most realistic for me.

        1. Christian

          My cousin at 17 years old benched 350 @ 185 lbs and I benched 315 at 22 years old @ 175 lbs. We never used drugs, we did take weight gain powder and liver tablets back in the 80’s. My cousin was built for the bench press and had a great chest and arms with the Arnold look. I was simply lean with abs and that look in the 80’s was not in style as its today. I benched 315 again in my late 30’s but at a weight of 205 lbs and also deadlifted 450 and could squat 400 lbs so its possible to reach those lifts naturally.

      2. Fatman

        “Roids hugely distorted what is possible naturally.”

        Not so much when it comes to strength training. Physique-wise, absolutely – a guy who doesn’t lift and takes steroids will gain more muscle than a guy who lifts and doesn’t take steroids. But the old 3/4/5 plate standard should be achievable by naturals of average height and weight.

        What really distorts numbers in powerlifting (besides drugs) is the height/weight of the lifters, i.e. “power-midgetism”. E.g. Ed Coan weighed around 220 lbs., but he’s only 5’4″ or so tall. So while he lifted in the 220lb category, his bodily leverages were closer to those of a superheavyweight, and his lifts reflected this. A six-foot lifter weighing 220 lbs. has almost zero chance reaching Coan’s numbers, steroids or not.

        1. Glove

          “3/4/5 plate standard is achievable for standard guy.” o.k. Supposed is would be true: What do you think super talented guys
          (not very tall, heavy, super genes) will lift naturally? 10% more? 20%, 50%???
          Short top athlets are always capable to lift very heavy weights with relatively low body weight. True. So the coefficient between body weight and lifted weight is always higher. Powerlifting, Weightlifting, the same. Same with natural or drug using lifters.
          What I want to say is: from what level we are talking when we are talking about top naturals and top drug using lifters??? Top drug users is easy. Have a look into the results of powerlifting championships. Top natural lifters? Not so easy…

          1. Fatman

            “Supposed is would be true: What do you think super talented guys
            (not very tall, heavy, super genes) will lift naturally?”

            This is a hard call to make. Guys who are good at lifting weights and achieve competitive results are likely to start using steroids because they want to be able to remain competitive. This distorts results, because the best lifters are almost always removed from the natty pool.

            I believe that trainees who are natural and built for lifting can hit 4/5/6 plates (at a BW between 190 and 220 lbs.). Maybe not necessarily in all 3 lifts, but in the one or two they are built for. E.g. a 4-plate bench and a 5-plate squat, but not a 6-plate deadlift, or someone with a weak bench might achieve a 5P squat and 6P deadlift, etc. This is just my opinion based on my own training (drug free) and training with others (some drug free, some not).

          2. Glove

            o.k. I agree with you.
            In my opinion with a few very important modifications in opposite to yours:
            4 plates in bench press is extemely difficult. I wouldn´t say: impossible.
            10 kg more than the world record holder I personally trust in. His bw was about 120kg and he´s short.
            But as said before: you never know.

            5 plates in squats and 6 plates in deads is possible. A little bit below this world record holder.
            I would say: NOT BAD!!!

            Those numbers with 190 lbs (about 85 kg) bw as an all time natural: impossible! Absolutely unrealistic.

          3. Fatman

            “Those numbers with 190 lbs (about 85 kg) bw as an all time natural: impossible!”

            Maybe, maybe not. A few years ago I followed the website of a very talented young powerlifter who was adamantly against drugs. He weighed in at just under 200 lbs., had a competition raw bench of 405 and a squat of 505 (pounds). But he is only 5’5″ tall and built like a fire hydrant, Ed Coan style.

      3. Stephen

        If strength is your sole aim, and youre on gear and only benching 3 plates, there is something seriously wrong.

        If physique is your goal, and you care about benching 3 plates, again, there is something seriously wrong.

  10. Matt

    So, what can I actually naturally achieve in terms of strength without drugs, obesity, or sacrificing endurance and all life outside the gym? I’m a 5’7″ male, 153lbs right now.

  11. Glove

    Some years ago I was in correspondence with a guy who won the world championships in natural powerlifting. His height was 175cm. Bodyweight 120kg (about 265lbs)
    Bench: 170kg
    Squat: 240kg
    Dead: 270kg
    In my hometown there is a person who has a very well known Youtube channel. He is definitely HUGE. 300 lbs. Of cause he is fat but he has a more than solid frame. Best bench is 167kg.
    These two persons pretend to be drugfree and I believe they are drugfree. Needless to say that both persons are lifters for a long time. And both persons are really gifted.
    Many years ago I read an article about John Kuc. He was/is a powerlifting LEGEND! After stop to taking drugs his bench press was 190kg.

    1. Truth Seeker Post author

      Stop = usually low doses. Plus, he was a freak even among roid users. To this day, people can’t touch him. Average dudes will never have this.

      Also, the bodyweights above (120-140kg) would require most naturals to be like 40% body fat.

    2. Fatman

      “HUGE. 300 lbs. Of cause he is fat but he has a more than solid frame. Best bench is 167kg.”

      That’s a bench press 30 kilos over their bodyweight. To achieve it, one does not need to be on drugs, or particularly gifted for the lift.

      The same goes for Kuc’s 190kg bench. At SHW, definitely achievable without steroids, I’d even dare to say average. Can’t remember 100%, but I believe the bench was his weakest powerlift.

      1. Glove

        130 kg body weight with 167 kg benching sounds easy. Such a big guy and just 37 kg bench more than his body weight. That´s nothing people think. You train a little bit and eat a lot and then 167 kg shouldn´t be a problem. Reality is different. Do you think this guy has this high body weight just for fun? No. He reached his genetic limit and now he DESPERATELY tries to get a LITTLE BIT BETTER. What happens: he has to gain 1 kg bodyweight to have 1 kg more on the bench.

        Yes. Kuc´s “weakest” lift was the bench. As long as 600lbs raw bench are regarded as “weak” or “average” you might be right.
        Believe me: benching 190kg ALL TIME NATURALLY sounds easy with the calculator in the hand in front of the computer.
        In the reality it´s impossible for 99,9% of all. Whether their body weight is 220 or 300 lbs. Doesn´t matter.
        190 kg bench naturally “average”. Are you sure??? Do you really think that Kuc is “average” in ANYTHING what has to do with power???
        But I know there are “experts” in the net who are promising “average lifters” that they can bench 200kg easily after 7 years of training.
        Sorry. Absolute bullshit. Believe me. I know this scene since 45 years and I have seen many and a lot. From the beginner to the some extremely successful lifter and bbler.
        If you want to go over a certain limit which is much lower as optimistic lifters think drugs are the only answer.
        After my gains within the first year I was convinced that it wouldn´t be a problem to bench 200kg. I understand that young lifters think like that. But to find out your natural limit is never funny if you are ambitious.

        1. Fatman

          “Yes. Kuc´s “weakest” lift was the bench”

          I was wrong about this, must have confused Kuc with some other old school lifter.

          “190 kg bench naturally “average”. Are you sure???”

          For a person weighing almost 150 kgs (Kuc) with the muscle memory of bench pressing over 270 kgs and a history of steroid use, 190 is pretty average. Kuc was not an “all time natural” either. For the average guy weighing in at 80 kgs, 190k is extremely advanced… but that’s not John Kuc. I don’t get the point you’re trying to make.

          1. Glove

            No. You were right.
            Kuc benched with bodyweight 153 kg 272,5 kg in 1971.
            Later in 1974 in the 110kg class between 220 -227,5 kg (NOT steriod-free)
            Again: John Cook bw 110, bench 227,5kg (110kg REAL muscles)
            “For the avarage guy weighing in at 80 kgs, 190 kg is extremely advanced”
            No. It´s not extremely advanced. It´s extremely impossible.

            Some people may trust in numbers they read in list of WDFPF. (drug free powerlifting)
            I´am not!
            In the 90kg class world record is 208kg. The only drug free thing is the name of this organisation.

    1. adrb

      From my little experience, benching 2x BW is achievable for… virtually nobody 😉 It’s different for squat or dead lift, where you can go beyond that point. But again going beyond 3xBW? Highly unlikely without any “magic”.

  12. Donne the Conquerer

    The one thing that gets lost in these conversations is that there is always an anomaly out liar in any general analysis, including muscular size, skeletal structure and symmetry, though obviously no mortal human being can aspire to replicate such a specimen by altering training, diet, etc. Just like being 7’6″ tall (or taller), there may be some mutant that can look like he’s on a mother load of drugs and be drug free, though freaky vascularity at that size would never be so pronounced (as it is with drugs) with such specimens.

    For example, Sergio Oliva is said by many within the muscle industry to have been the most gifted and freakiest bodybuilder that ever lived, and perhaps if drugs never had been invented he still would look unbelievable, by any measure, to a pair of human eyes (though the unbelievable standard would be set much lower, respectively). And of course, Sergio was on steroids and quite vocal and open about it, but many will tell you that when he was a green horn defected from Cuba he possessed the most ridiculous biceps & v-taper ever observed on a human being.

    Note: Amazingly, Sergio claimed that he had a twin brother back in Cuba that was considerably BIGGER than he was at the time he immigrated from his homeland.

    Still, such people are as rare as 8′ giants; they exist from time to time, but the likely hood of bumping into such a human being would be significantly remote.

    I bring this up because there are exceptions to any rule, but that’s all these are: “exceptions”. As stated, in all likelihood, you will never encounter such a person throughout the course of a lifetime (unless you have a passion and profession in cryptozoology).

    1. Glove

      Interesting point. If every human beeing would lift weights seriously we would see some very strong and bulky copies.
      So nobody knows what is REALLY possible if those outperformers are taken into account.
      Some endocrinolists might know…

      1. Donne the Conquerer

        And here is something else to think about: If PED’s never were discovered, how much more would we know about training, dieting, etc? Every competitor would be “natural”, and the true genetic mutants would really shine as amazing (and unsuall) freaks of nature.

        Where would that freak and unusual ceiling be for the gifted 0.0001%? How would the average someone, dedicated to proper diet and training, look after over 50 years of living the bodybuilding lifestyle? What would the average (and not so average) human body truly be capable of achieving within the human realm of unassisted training?

        Perhaps TruthSeekers comments about the upper limitations of the human body (from a development standpoint, respectively) are right, as we can only speculate at best, because chemicals have muddled those waters.

    2. joe santus

      …and, regarding pre-1954 bodybuilders with enviable mass and proportions (e.g. Sandow, Reeves), the message the muscle industry deliberately minimized or avoided even back then is this:
      “He’s a genetic anomaly and therefore 99% of you can never build a physique anything close to his, not even if your dedication, consistency, intensity, training protocol, nutrition, and recovery protocol are all optimal and perfect and you bodybuild for ten years.”

  13. MB

    I have a question:
    When someone start using steroids. And then they stop again, does that mean that they again can find their natural original potential? Or does the AS changes their body enough so they can achieve more than their natural potential after they stop using AS.

    1. twp

      I think steroid usage boost your muscle mass and strength even after they are stopped, contrary to what most people say.

      Olympic athletes do it this way – they stop cycling when they are near doping tests and competition. And whey they are off season they do steroid cycles which benefit them when they are off cycle on competitions.

      Also google “Steroids can benefit athletes for a decade after use” This is really interesting.

      1. MB

        Thank you for your respond.
        I followed someone who I always thought was natural and after reading all these articles I got serious doubts. Based on the signs I have to conclude she wasn’t always natural.

    2. twp

      If PEDs where never never discovered the biggest roiders now would be still the biggest guys without roids, because genes.
      And without PEDs existing there would be no fitness industry, because there will be no hype about these huge muscular shredded guys.

      1. Fatman

        “If PEDs where never never discovered the biggest roiders now would be still the biggest guys without roids, because genes.”

        I hear juicers use this argument all the time, but am a bit skeptical. Responsiveness to steroids is different from responsiveness to training. Some very average guys who never achieved much naturally “blow up” on steroids.

          1. joe santus

            Among national and world class bodybuilders, an extreme response to drugs is the norm — their exceptional response is typically why (if they have the proper skeletal structure and muscle-belly lengths for aesthetic proportions) they’re able to build the outlandish mass they carry and compete at that level.

            Often the response of national and world class guys is so much higher that they can build more mass on smaller dosages of steroids than many wanna-be guys can build taking much larger dosages. (That’s not to say they take “small” dosages, but that they can take smallER dosages yet build more muscle.)

    3. joe santus

      Some research indicates that, at least for certain individuals, long-term use of anabolic steroids at even moderately high doasages may long-term (though not necessarily permanently) increase the number of satellite cells (which repair and regenerate muscle); and, increase the number of nucleii in muscle cells (which enables the muscle to grow bigger).

      Those increases might not be huge, but can be significant enough to allow a person who uses steroids but then quits to have the potential for slightly more maximum muscle mass than he’d have had if he never used the drugs.

  14. ethnvine

    Great article, I recommend Noam Chomsky’s “REQUIEM FOR THE AMERICAN DREAM” documentary and also “Inside Job”, both these explain how big corporations delude the people. I think what “Truth Seeker” writes is an informal version of Noam Chomsky’s doc (it also discusses about confusing people to make irrational decisions). Keep up the great work. It will be great if you can add reference to these in your works. Thanks.

  15. Jack

    Hey man, can you do a FULL condensed article on EXACTLY what is possible (using physical images, and all the data/numbers) vs what is highly unlikely to be natural in full totality (height, weight, bmi, musculature, the other stat you always use in the 20’s cannot remember what it’s called…). Just one big FUCK YOU article to the naysayers? Because i am sooooo tired of seeing people who I KNOW are on steroids just LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH and as soon as… nevermind YOU of all people know where I am going with this, LOL.

    1. Joos Liftsteen

      The best thing you can do is go lift on a careful routine of progressive overload for a few years.

      Get strong and balanced across your body.

      Having done this, you’ll gain a clear sense of what’s possible and what’s not.

      With that in hand, you’ll find peace with all the fake natties’ lying.

  16. MB

    When we go back 10 or 15 years ago, is it possible then that a female natural bodybuilder can be competitive in non-tested shows?

  17. Kumar

    Hello again.
    I am back to the lifting game after 15 years. I am trying your version of starting strength.
    I am confused as to what weight must I start for the different lifts; squat, overhead press, bench press, dumbell rows, deadlifts.
    Please share with me any protocol that I can use to determine the starting weights.
    Thanks in anticipation.

  18. joe santus

    As far as the behavior of free versus caged chickens…well…I owned at least two dozen layer (that is, egg-producing breeds) hens at any time for over fifteen years (for eggs for family consumption). My chickens were always kept in a large coop, never allowed to roam freely. They regularly produced eggs, sometimes an egg per hen every day. So, that tale about caged chickens needing free chickens around to inspire them to produce is false.
    However…there is one behavior of chickens that does seem significant, when chickens are compared to humans — the other chickens will attack and often peck to death a chicken which exhibits abnormal characteristics. That is, if a chicken fails to “fit in and be like the rest”, it is rejected by the brood.

  19. John

    One of the honest people in the strength/bodybuilding/fitness industry was Arthur Jones, in his writings he is very honest about the role of genetic potential in developing your physique and also did not promote any supplements as he thought they were a con job…he was a man that had a passion for the truth, very rare in this particular
    field and was more knowledgeable about how the human body actually functions than most, if not all exercise scientists!

    1. joe santus

      LOL…well…I’m age 62 and have been bodybuilding for forty-five years. I began bodybuilding at age sixteen shortly after Jones published his Nautilus Bulletins #1 and #2 and had articles appear in the muscle magazines of that era (including Muscular Development, Iron Man, Muscle Magazine, and Muscle Training Illustrated).

      Yes, Jones was very knowledgeable relative to many in the fitness industry…He helped the average-gened, steroid-free guy (I was one) realize that the high volume training used by steroid-using, elite-gened guys was unproductive and even counterproductive for him for optimizing hypertrophy…And he rejected any need except actual diagnosed deficiency for supplements.

      However, Jones was also too quick to preach his conclusions and insist one method worked optimally for everyone (a conclusion which in later of his writings he admitted was incorrect due to genetic variations in fiber types among people, an admission which most who’d believed him earlier never read)…His theories (including the practicability of building machines and cams which accurately produced the variable resistance Jones conceptualized) were disputed by equally-knowledgeable strength and exercise experts…He promoted his Nautilus machines as superior to every other form of resistance exercise (some Nautilus machines work well but are not substantially better than other bodybuilding equipment for hypertrophy)…And he may not have been selling supplements but he damned well was marketeering his comparatively expensive Nautilus and Med-X machines.

  20. Kyle Michaud

    Back when I was consistent and lean, (Going to try to get back into it this weekend) My arms were up to 17″ at 5 ft 5. After my wife having a baby and starting a personal training business ive been slacking and gained some weight. I’m about 182 right now. Arms are still big but obviously not how I want them. I have always been natural. always will be. there is hope for everyone.

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